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brian keating is a distinguished

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professor of physics at the university

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of california san diego and is also a

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member of avilob's galileo project

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assisting for the search for alien

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techno signatures across the cosmos

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brian also has his own podcast exploring

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physics from the theoretical end to the

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experimental end and he has the record

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of interviewing the most nobel laureates

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links to his podcast are in the

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description lee cronin is the regis

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chair of chemistry in the university of

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glasgow and in addition to having a

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velvety accent that i highly covet he's

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published over 450 papers and pioneered

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a new quantitative measure of complexity

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called assembly theory this allows one

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to look at a molecule and categorize its

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complexity perhaps even with mass

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spectrometry and then determine if it's

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sufficiently complicated enough to have

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been produced solely as a result of an

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evolutionary process or by chance but

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you can measure that and thus that

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greatly aids the search for life outside

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of earth click on the timestamp in the

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description if you'd like to skip this

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intro my name is kirchey mungle i'm a

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torontonian filmmaker with a background

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in mathematical physics dedicated to the

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explication of the variegated terrain of

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theories of everything from a

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theoretical physics perspective but as

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well as analyzing consciousness and

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seeing its potential connection to

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fundamental reality whatever that is

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essentially this channel is dedicated to

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exploring the underrived nature of

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reality the constitutional laws that

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govern it provided those laws exist at

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all and are even noble to us if you

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enjoy witnessing and engaging with

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others on the topics of psychology

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consciousness physics etc the channel's

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themes then do consider going to the

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discord and the subreddit which are

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linked in the description there's also a

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link to the patreon that is patreon.com

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kirchimongo if you'd like to support

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this podcast as the patrons and the

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sponsors are the only reasons that i'm

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able to have podcasts of this quality

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and this depth given that i can do this

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now full time thanks to both the patrons

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and the sponsors support speaking of

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sponsors there are two the first sponsor

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is brilliant during the winter break i

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decided to brush up on some of the

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fundamentals of physics particularly

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with regard to information theory as i'd

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like to interview chiara marletto on

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constructor theory which is heavily

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based in information theory now

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information theory is predicated on

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entropy at least there's a fundamental

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formula for entropy so i ended up taking

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the brilliant course i challenged myself

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to do one lesson per day and i took the

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course's random variable distributions

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and knowledge

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uncertainty what i loved is that despite

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knowing the formula for entropy which is

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essentially hammered into you as an

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undergraduate it seems like it comes

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down from the sky arbitrarily and with

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brilliance for the first time i was able

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to see how the formula for entropy which

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you're seeing right now is actually

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extremely natural and it'd be strange to

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define it in any other manner there are

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plenty of courses and you can even learn

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group theory which is what's being

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referenced when you hear that the

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standard model is predicated on u1 cross

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su-2 cross su 3 those are league groups

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continuous league groups visit

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brilliant.org

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tow t-o-e to get 20 off an annual

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subscription and i recommend that you

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don't stop before four lessons i think

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you'll be greatly surprised at the ease

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at which you can now comprehend subjects

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you previously had a difficult time

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grocking the second sponsor is algo now

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algo is an end-to-end supply chain

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optimization software company with

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inventory investment it's a supply chain

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ai that drives smart roi headed by amjad

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hussein who's been a huge supporter of

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this podcast since near its inception in

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fact amjad has his own podcast on ai and

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consciousness and business growth and if

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you'd like to support the toe podcast

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then visit the link in the description

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to see amjad's podcast because

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subscribing to him or at least visiting

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supports the toe podcast indirectly

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thank you and enjoy is that an aura ring

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i got mine here

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i got i joked this one you see this one

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no

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that's the fourth generation it's

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stealth

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oh i get it

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do you have any words for me before we

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um just no i mean i think we can make it

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kind of funny and you know say we're

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gonna

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say brian is in denial about his alien

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abduction

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we'll say we'll have a nice clean toe to

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toe fight

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you know we're gonna have a theory of

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everything verse theory of everything

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life the universe and everything

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okay so if you can see this type rocco's

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modern life

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this should be live now

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brian you can confirm that for me

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um

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yes it is all right yeah

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okay great thank you thank you all for

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being here well to the audience and to

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especially to professor keating and

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professor cronin thank you

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it's a pleasure to be here good to see

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you lee

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yeah hi how's it going guys

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how about you both start with your

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opening statements brian you can go

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first

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that this will be a nice clean

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toe-to-toe

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battle

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that we won't resort to any bloodshed

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like our last

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confrontation with now lee ali has been

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on my channel he's a gracious gentleman

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i enjoyed having him on i refer people

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to uh to check out that conversation

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he's given a ted talk that was uh surely

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inspirational that came out 10 years ago

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on my 40th birthday so you guys can do

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some quick math um and league hasn't

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changed a bit i've got some some gray

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beard hairs as you can see um but the

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reason i i suggest kurt said you know

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you can have any guests

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you know to have a theo locution which

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is appropriate for gods like us um in in

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man form and i said uh there's no one i

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want to go toe-to-toe with more than my

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good friend lee cronin because i have

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tremendous respect

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for his intellect uh for his character

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for the fact that he's an

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experimentalist he's a chemist not a

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physicist but he that's okay some of my

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best friends are chemists

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and uh he does experimental work and

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that's very rare kurt as you know you

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have theories in your name of your

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podcast we hear a lot more from the

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theorists we hear from michio kaku from

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our buddy eric weinstein from our

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buddies you know brian green and and uh

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all the like but we rarely get to hear

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from experimentalists so one of the

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niches i like to hopefully fill in

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is is to bring an experimentalist

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standpoint to it which is first and

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foremost driven by evidence

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and i'm hoping that today

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uh if lee agrees that we'll kind of take

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a tour through what we know about the

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universe what we know we don't know

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about the universe specifically

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restricted to life which is lee's domain

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much more than mine

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but i want to bring an experimental

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observational astrophysics perspective

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to things and even touch upon the things

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that inspired me as a 12 year old kid to

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get my first telescope which is the

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biggest question i think there is even

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though i study the origin of the

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universe i still think the question of

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the origin and evolution of life and the

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existence of technological life would

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change humanity more than anything else

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except for the fact that i don't think

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there's anyone else out there so i'm

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going to take a contrarian point of view

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not a skeptic i don't like the role of

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skeptic i think that's kind of overblown

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and hyperbolic um and people you don't

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want to invite too many skeptics to uh

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you know to a fun birthday party uh but

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i want to play to play the role of uh of

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somebody who would like nothing better

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than for aliens for ufos for uaps to all

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be

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harbingers of unexplored civilizations

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that are going to be hopefully

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benevolent uh and yet i'm coming to from

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a perspective of moderation of my

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excitement so that i don't get too

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overblown and too optimistic and i hope

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that we can have a a very spirited

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discussion and as i said there's no one

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i'd rather have this friendly

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bloodthirsty debate with than uh

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professor lee cronin who's a who's a

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giant in his field and has already

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accomplished a tremendous amount and yet

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we differ and and hopefully by the end

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we should have a rubric by which we can

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apprise for the audience how much we

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have learned from each other if i change

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my mind if lee changes his mind so maybe

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after lee's introduction we'll have kind

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of a framing you know the rules of the

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fight like kurt you'll be in the middle

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of the ring and uh we'll go toe-to-toe

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with that turn it over to my buddy lee

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lee thanks brian is that okay were you

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cut yes please go so yeah i mean this is

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i was really looking forward to this

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because uh brian and i both shared a

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rule of scientific law that um we kind

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of like data and we like experiments we

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like theory and

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um i've listened to brian debate a lot

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and he's very poli he's much more polite

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and patient than i am so i have a lot of

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respect i really have to read between

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the lines and i've been involved in some

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debates where people just want to catch

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me out

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and i and i'm no doubt brian's been in

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the same place so i would say today is

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probably almost going to be too

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congenial but i think that's really

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important because we're both open-minded

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but we're optimistic about different

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things now as a chemist

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i have a very

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intuitive feel for the way chemistry

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works on planet earth the rate at which

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molecules are made and destroyed

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and i'm fascinated by biology and

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and actually i'm gonna i describe myself

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for full um

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disclosure i'm really an experimental

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theorist in a way i'm not

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i don't think i have the

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analytical um brain to be a good

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theorist but i'm really good at coming

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up with

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experiments to develop a theory and i'll

276
00:09:37,269 --> 00:09:36,240
explain a little bit seems a bit weird

277
00:09:39,670 --> 00:09:37,279
but um

278
00:09:43,750 --> 00:09:39,680
i do agree with brian i'm very skeptical

279
00:09:46,150 --> 00:09:43,760
about uh making declarations i i don't

280
00:09:48,150 --> 00:09:46,160
know if i can put a number on and i was

281
00:09:50,550 --> 00:09:48,160
on my computer on about alien life or

282
00:09:51,750 --> 00:09:50,560
not i wrote a paper a few years ago

283
00:09:53,110 --> 00:09:51,760
which is called um

284
00:09:55,110 --> 00:09:53,120
[Music]

285
00:09:56,630 --> 00:09:55,120
quantifying the origins of life on a

286
00:09:58,790 --> 00:09:56,640
planetary scale

287
00:10:01,430 --> 00:09:58,800
and i'll talk about the drake equation

288
00:10:03,670 --> 00:10:01,440
and the fermi paradox and the chemistry

289
00:10:05,590 --> 00:10:03,680
but let's let and i also want to make

290
00:10:07,350 --> 00:10:05,600
this about what brian is doing very well

291
00:10:09,190 --> 00:10:07,360
is saying hey

292
00:10:11,350 --> 00:10:09,200
i don't i don't

293
00:10:12,790 --> 00:10:11,360
know or i'm not i won't paraphrase too

294
00:10:14,710 --> 00:10:12,800
much because i think he's much more

295
00:10:17,030 --> 00:10:14,720
qualified to give his own point of view

296
00:10:19,190 --> 00:10:17,040
given he's here so there is this kind of

297
00:10:20,710 --> 00:10:19,200
gap in his intuition

298
00:10:22,710 --> 00:10:20,720
and i'm going to try and fill that and

299
00:10:23,750 --> 00:10:22,720
say well look i know how easy chemistry

300
00:10:27,590 --> 00:10:23,760
is

301
00:10:29,030 --> 00:10:27,600
and i want to make a couple of

302
00:10:31,269 --> 00:10:29,040
statements the first thing is we don't

303
00:10:33,750 --> 00:10:31,279
really know what life is and i don't

304
00:10:36,870 --> 00:10:33,760
mean in some kind of weird kind of um

305
00:10:38,949 --> 00:10:36,880
whether we are you know um projections

306
00:10:42,389 --> 00:10:38,959
from an astral plane we're clearly

307
00:10:45,030 --> 00:10:42,399
material i'm i'm kind of a materialist

308
00:10:47,829 --> 00:10:45,040
but to kind of ch cheat on one of a copy

309
00:10:49,269 --> 00:10:47,839
of what penrose said in a podcast said

310
00:10:50,870 --> 00:10:49,279
i'm a materialist but i just don't know

311
00:10:52,310 --> 00:10:50,880
what the matter is

312
00:10:54,150 --> 00:10:52,320
right and i think that's kind of

313
00:10:56,310 --> 00:10:54,160
important to understand that so that's

314
00:10:58,630 --> 00:10:56,320
one point the other point is i would

315
00:11:01,110 --> 00:10:58,640
appeal to at this house at the beginning

316
00:11:03,110 --> 00:11:01,120
i would say there's lots of gaps

317
00:11:06,150 --> 00:11:03,120
in my kind of feeling of how the

318
00:11:07,829 --> 00:11:06,160
universe works so physicists typically

319
00:11:09,990 --> 00:11:07,839
have i think

320
00:11:12,710 --> 00:11:10,000
not have three or four things that they

321
00:11:14,790 --> 00:11:12,720
i find confusing that they conflate to

322
00:11:16,550 --> 00:11:14,800
kind of think that life is odd the first

323
00:11:19,110 --> 00:11:16,560
of all is the origin of the universe how

324
00:11:21,509 --> 00:11:19,120
did the universe get started you'll hear

325
00:11:23,430 --> 00:11:21,519
time and time again for the second law

326
00:11:25,670 --> 00:11:23,440
that is that things get more disordered

327
00:11:27,670 --> 00:11:25,680
over time we have more order at the

328
00:11:29,430 --> 00:11:27,680
beginning so say hey where does that

329
00:11:32,310 --> 00:11:29,440
order come from brian is really well

330
00:11:34,150 --> 00:11:32,320
qualified to to explain that and i'm

331
00:11:36,150 --> 00:11:34,160
hoping that by him explaining some of

332
00:11:37,509 --> 00:11:36,160
the positions i find confusing

333
00:11:39,269 --> 00:11:37,519
i'll be able to explain some of the

334
00:11:41,190 --> 00:11:39,279
positions he finds confusing we might

335
00:11:42,790 --> 00:11:41,200
even find ourselves agreeing which is

336
00:11:44,870 --> 00:11:42,800
not a very good blood spore but let's

337
00:11:46,470 --> 00:11:44,880
let's not prejudge our agreement because

338
00:11:48,790 --> 00:11:46,480
there's lots of disagreement so

339
00:11:50,949 --> 00:11:48,800
physicists think that there needs to be

340
00:11:53,350 --> 00:11:50,959
a um an order at the beginning of the

341
00:11:54,630 --> 00:11:53,360
universe so i find that confusing

342
00:11:56,710 --> 00:11:54,640
and i

343
00:11:58,790 --> 00:11:56,720
the second law for me is baked into the

344
00:12:00,870 --> 00:11:58,800
way i do chemistry so i get this

345
00:12:03,110 --> 00:12:00,880
chemistry all these complex molecules

346
00:12:04,790 --> 00:12:03,120
and they turn into life and hey presto

347
00:12:06,710 --> 00:12:04,800
we get there well actually it's not like

348
00:12:08,870 --> 00:12:06,720
that we don't know what it is

349
00:12:10,629 --> 00:12:08,880
the other gap is that we talk about this

350
00:12:12,389 --> 00:12:10,639
thing called entropy

351
00:12:13,829 --> 00:12:12,399
and we also talk about what we call

352
00:12:16,150 --> 00:12:13,839
causation

353
00:12:18,310 --> 00:12:16,160
and kind of the emergence of information

354
00:12:19,590 --> 00:12:18,320
or intention and so in my opening

355
00:12:22,069 --> 00:12:19,600
statement i would just like to say there

356
00:12:23,190 --> 00:12:22,079
are significant gaps in physics which

357
00:12:24,389 --> 00:12:23,200
help us

358
00:12:26,550 --> 00:12:24,399
we're precluded from really even

359
00:12:29,509 --> 00:12:26,560
understanding why the universe is here

360
00:12:31,430 --> 00:12:29,519
so i both sympathize with brian's view

361
00:12:33,670 --> 00:12:31,440
but i also would like to go you know

362
00:12:35,110 --> 00:12:33,680
straight back at you and say could we

363
00:12:37,110 --> 00:12:35,120
could

364
00:12:38,470 --> 00:12:37,120
understanding the origin of life which

365
00:12:41,750 --> 00:12:38,480
i'm not so interested in i want to

366
00:12:43,269 --> 00:12:41,760
understand how life forms is a phenomena

367
00:12:45,430 --> 00:12:43,279
um it might even actually help us

368
00:12:47,030 --> 00:12:45,440
understand what the universe is

369
00:12:48,310 --> 00:12:47,040
and so my

370
00:12:50,629 --> 00:12:48,320
real

371
00:12:52,870 --> 00:12:50,639
intuition is that

372
00:12:54,870 --> 00:12:52,880
life is as easy as starting a fusion

373
00:12:56,470 --> 00:12:54,880
reaction in the sky

374
00:12:58,550 --> 00:12:56,480
and there are fusion reactions starting

375
00:13:00,389 --> 00:12:58,560
all the time stars giving birth and

376
00:13:02,310 --> 00:13:00,399
stars dying

377
00:13:03,990 --> 00:13:02,320
and we need to think statistically in

378
00:13:05,590 --> 00:13:04,000
that way to start to reframe the

379
00:13:07,430 --> 00:13:05,600
argument now

380
00:13:09,110 --> 00:13:07,440
does all life turn into intelligent life

381
00:13:10,790 --> 00:13:09,120
we can debate that and talk about it but

382
00:13:13,350 --> 00:13:10,800
i would say that in my opening argument

383
00:13:14,629 --> 00:13:13,360
i think i see no barrier for why life

384
00:13:17,670 --> 00:13:14,639
can't be common

385
00:13:20,389 --> 00:13:17,680
there seems to be no law or no

386
00:13:22,870 --> 00:13:20,399
gotcha in terms of resource but i do

387
00:13:25,269 --> 00:13:22,880
concede we don't know what life is but i

388
00:13:26,629 --> 00:13:25,279
also would kind of say you know we don't

389
00:13:27,430 --> 00:13:26,639
really know how

390
00:13:29,990 --> 00:13:27,440
where

391
00:13:32,310 --> 00:13:30,000
the second law comes from

392
00:13:33,509 --> 00:13:32,320
that we time seems to be optional in our

393
00:13:35,190 --> 00:13:33,519
universe

394
00:13:37,269 --> 00:13:35,200
and we have all this jiggery pokery with

395
00:13:39,750 --> 00:13:37,279
the second law and how things happen

396
00:13:41,590 --> 00:13:39,760
and uh and with that i will close my

397
00:13:43,350 --> 00:13:41,600
opening statement

398
00:13:44,790 --> 00:13:43,360
all right let's agree on some

399
00:13:47,509 --> 00:13:44,800
definitions or let's get them out of the

400
00:13:49,110 --> 00:13:47,519
way so perhaps lee why don't you define

401
00:13:51,110 --> 00:13:49,120
i know this is highly contentious but

402
00:13:52,470 --> 00:13:51,120
why don't you define what life is and if

403
00:13:54,150 --> 00:13:52,480
you can't define it then why can't you

404
00:13:57,110 --> 00:13:54,160
define it and then also intelligence so

405
00:14:00,870 --> 00:13:57,120
life and intelligence and then brian

406
00:14:03,030 --> 00:14:00,880
add to that or tear it down

407
00:14:05,350 --> 00:14:03,040
yeah please tear it down so there's more

408
00:14:07,990 --> 00:14:05,360
definitions of life than there are life

409
00:14:09,910 --> 00:14:08,000
forms on earth thinking about it

410
00:14:11,670 --> 00:14:09,920
which will give you some but i'll give

411
00:14:13,030 --> 00:14:11,680
you the standard nasa definition and

412
00:14:15,509 --> 00:14:13,040
i'll give you a slightly easier one

413
00:14:17,189 --> 00:14:15,519
which will also blow your mind so nasa

414
00:14:19,430 --> 00:14:17,199
kind of got a committee and got a lot of

415
00:14:21,430 --> 00:14:19,440
really smart people together and really

416
00:14:22,870 --> 00:14:21,440
you know said well okay look what are we

417
00:14:24,470 --> 00:14:22,880
kind of looking for

418
00:14:26,710 --> 00:14:24,480
and i'm going to get this wrong because

419
00:14:29,189 --> 00:14:26,720
i i i don't know if i

420
00:14:31,269 --> 00:14:29,199
wrote but it's roughly saying that life

421
00:14:34,150 --> 00:14:31,279
is a self

422
00:14:35,910 --> 00:14:34,160
reproducing or a sustaining

423
00:14:38,629 --> 00:14:35,920
um um

424
00:14:40,310 --> 00:14:38,639
evolutionary chemical system capable of

425
00:14:42,150 --> 00:14:40,320
darwinian evolution i think i've almost

426
00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:42,160
got it in a line and that's there's a

427
00:14:45,990 --> 00:14:43,680
lot of things in there because it's

428
00:14:48,150 --> 00:14:46,000
saying has to be self-sustaining there's

429
00:14:49,829 --> 00:14:48,160
replication and there's darwinian

430
00:14:50,790 --> 00:14:49,839
evolution there's a kind of a lot of

431
00:14:52,389 --> 00:14:50,800
terms

432
00:14:54,389 --> 00:14:52,399
and the thing for that is that you have

433
00:14:56,150 --> 00:14:54,399
to then get almost like the legislature

434
00:14:59,030 --> 00:14:56,160
out to say you know do you qualify to be

435
00:15:01,590 --> 00:14:59,040
a life form you know are you replicating

436
00:15:04,150 --> 00:15:01,600
okay maybe are you metabolizing and then

437
00:15:06,069 --> 00:15:04,160
you get people saying oh but fire fire

438
00:15:07,990 --> 00:15:06,079
fire kind of does that why is fire not

439
00:15:09,590 --> 00:15:08,000
alive and you get all trapped into

440
00:15:12,790 --> 00:15:09,600
circles and people say are viruses are

441
00:15:14,710 --> 00:15:12,800
they alive so i'm to give you um the

442
00:15:16,470 --> 00:15:14,720
kind of cronin

443
00:15:18,150 --> 00:15:16,480
definition but actually is the probably

444
00:15:20,389 --> 00:15:18,160
more like the walker definition or the

445
00:15:22,150 --> 00:15:20,399
cronin walker definition and i'm i'm

446
00:15:25,509 --> 00:15:22,160
collaborating with a

447
00:15:27,189 --> 00:15:25,519
a colleague at asu sarah walker um who

448
00:15:29,189 --> 00:15:27,199
really has inspired a lot of this and we

449
00:15:30,790 --> 00:15:29,199
kind of we've been developing theory but

450
00:15:32,550 --> 00:15:30,800
i'll come to that later but what i'm

451
00:15:34,069 --> 00:15:32,560
going to say and this is for you the

452
00:15:35,269 --> 00:15:34,079
people listening

453
00:15:37,269 --> 00:15:35,279
that

454
00:15:40,710 --> 00:15:37,279
living systems i don't know what they

455
00:15:42,550 --> 00:15:40,720
are exactly they're kind of like a bits

456
00:15:44,629 --> 00:15:42,560
although they're material there's some

457
00:15:47,110 --> 00:15:44,639
weird stuff but what do living systems

458
00:15:48,310 --> 00:15:47,120
uniquely do that no other systems do

459
00:15:50,069 --> 00:15:48,320
they create

460
00:15:51,030 --> 00:15:50,079
complex objects

461
00:15:53,430 --> 00:15:51,040
okay

462
00:15:56,150 --> 00:15:53,440
in abundance that couldn't form randomly

463
00:15:58,069 --> 00:15:56,160
so be it this 3d printer tesseract which

464
00:16:00,550 --> 00:15:58,079
i made on my 3d printer

465
00:16:01,749 --> 00:16:00,560
um this nice um

466
00:16:03,430 --> 00:16:01,759
fenix

467
00:16:05,350 --> 00:16:03,440
solar watch which a little lights coming

468
00:16:08,389 --> 00:16:05,360
on at the back so it's all function and

469
00:16:09,990 --> 00:16:08,399
my mouse and my my body and with the

470
00:16:12,150 --> 00:16:10,000
complex objects that um they just

471
00:16:13,350 --> 00:16:12,160
couldn't randomly form now we can define

472
00:16:15,910 --> 00:16:13,360
complexity in a minute but i'm going to

473
00:16:19,030 --> 00:16:15,920
give you kind of one other thing

474
00:16:21,670 --> 00:16:19,040
this thing or kind of says that this is

475
00:16:24,069 --> 00:16:21,680
alive and it kind of is which will blow

476
00:16:26,470 --> 00:16:24,079
your mind this is this is alive

477
00:16:29,350 --> 00:16:26,480
or this is evidence of life and then

478
00:16:31,829 --> 00:16:29,360
people say ah a virus is alive

479
00:16:33,430 --> 00:16:31,839
and the answer is yes viruses are

480
00:16:36,790 --> 00:16:33,440
produced by

481
00:16:38,710 --> 00:16:36,800
um uh evolutionary systems with biology

482
00:16:41,670 --> 00:16:38,720
and that viruses could not

483
00:16:43,269 --> 00:16:41,680
exist without the chain of events which

484
00:16:45,269 --> 00:16:43,279
connects all of us

485
00:16:47,430 --> 00:16:45,279
right back to that origin of life on

486
00:16:50,949 --> 00:16:47,440
earth so i guess i'm saying that's the

487
00:16:53,910 --> 00:16:50,959
definition for some of the aficionados

488
00:16:55,990 --> 00:16:53,920
you know replication metabolism

489
00:16:58,069 --> 00:16:56,000
darwinian evolution

490
00:17:00,150 --> 00:16:58,079
but i would say okay that's really hard

491
00:17:02,470 --> 00:17:00,160
tick box tick box why not look for

492
00:17:05,750 --> 00:17:02,480
things that do complex things that we

493
00:17:08,230 --> 00:17:05,760
wouldn't expect and so that's life

494
00:17:10,390 --> 00:17:08,240
to one degree then intelligence kind of

495
00:17:13,110 --> 00:17:10,400
builds on that because clearly

496
00:17:16,309 --> 00:17:13,120
this was not evolved in in the desert

497
00:17:17,189 --> 00:17:16,319
this required human beings to invent

498
00:17:20,390 --> 00:17:17,199
you know

499
00:17:22,470 --> 00:17:20,400
lithography a turing machine electricity

500
00:17:25,189 --> 00:17:22,480
i mean i am so proud of humanity it

501
00:17:26,069 --> 00:17:25,199
might sound a bit like a bit kind of um

502
00:17:27,750 --> 00:17:26,079
you know

503
00:17:29,909 --> 00:17:27,760
weird but

504
00:17:31,830 --> 00:17:29,919
how much creativity went into making

505
00:17:34,390 --> 00:17:31,840
this silly little watch there's a solar

506
00:17:35,990 --> 00:17:34,400
cell in here there are leds there's a

507
00:17:37,669 --> 00:17:36,000
microprocessor there's lithographic

508
00:17:39,750 --> 00:17:37,679
defined memory and there's refined

509
00:17:40,950 --> 00:17:39,760
titanium i was feeling rich when i

510
00:17:42,789 --> 00:17:40,960
bought when i bought this but i wanted a

511
00:17:45,669 --> 00:17:42,799
light watch on my list so there's all

512
00:17:47,669 --> 00:17:45,679
this cool stuff that we've done and this

513
00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:47,679
clearly is evidence and i'm going to use

514
00:17:51,990 --> 00:17:50,400
this term and i don't like using it but

515
00:17:54,230 --> 00:17:52,000
i'm going to use it in the way that i

516
00:17:56,230 --> 00:17:54,240
mean it and i'm sure brian will and you

517
00:17:58,150 --> 00:17:56,240
will cut me down if you think i'm being

518
00:18:01,110 --> 00:17:58,160
uh ambiguous this is a result of

519
00:18:03,350 --> 00:18:01,120
intelligent design and what i mean a

520
00:18:06,150 --> 00:18:03,360
human being building abstractions in

521
00:18:08,310 --> 00:18:06,160
their head were able to leap beyond the

522
00:18:09,669 --> 00:18:08,320
confines of evolution

523
00:18:12,230 --> 00:18:09,679
able to think about stuff and

524
00:18:14,950 --> 00:18:12,240
conceptualize not having to die trying

525
00:18:17,029 --> 00:18:14,960
it out and they made the watch so

526
00:18:19,190 --> 00:18:17,039
all the way back definition of life

527
00:18:22,390 --> 00:18:19,200
evolution chemistry

528
00:18:24,230 --> 00:18:22,400
nasa my definition stuff

529
00:18:25,350 --> 00:18:24,240
things that make complex things you

530
00:18:27,510 --> 00:18:25,360
couldn't uh

531
00:18:29,110 --> 00:18:27,520
in abundance with lots of copy numbers

532
00:18:31,510 --> 00:18:29,120
that you wouldn't find

533
00:18:33,110 --> 00:18:31,520
um ordinarily let's say on the moon on

534
00:18:35,270 --> 00:18:33,120
the mars and

535
00:18:37,750 --> 00:18:35,280
intelligent life can make objects are

536
00:18:40,470 --> 00:18:37,760
even more intricate so you have three

537
00:18:43,190 --> 00:18:40,480
epochs you have the random epoch just

538
00:18:45,990 --> 00:18:43,200
laws of physics doing their cool stuff

539
00:18:48,710 --> 00:18:46,000
the biological epoch the distribution of

540
00:18:49,750 --> 00:18:48,720
objects in that in their narrows a bit

541
00:18:54,150 --> 00:18:49,760
and then

542
00:18:55,669 --> 00:18:54,160
produces a delta function the number of

543
00:18:58,710 --> 00:18:55,679
transistors in here that have no

544
00:19:00,150 --> 00:18:58,720
variation almost perfect is a staggering

545
00:19:01,590 --> 00:19:00,160
and that's kind of long-winded but i

546
00:19:03,909 --> 00:19:01,600
think i just wanted to get that out it's

547
00:19:05,590 --> 00:19:03,919
quite precise and will get people

548
00:19:06,950 --> 00:19:05,600
watching and listening to think really

549
00:19:09,350 --> 00:19:06,960
like oh my gosh

550
00:19:12,390 --> 00:19:09,360
this cup is evidence of billion years of

551
00:19:15,430 --> 00:19:12,400
life because of no potter no discovery

552
00:19:17,430 --> 00:19:15,440
of no clay no cup just imagine how many

553
00:19:19,669 --> 00:19:17,440
this this lineage this trajectory this

554
00:19:21,909 --> 00:19:19,679
object this is actually made in beijing

555
00:19:24,470 --> 00:19:21,919
there's some lovely pictures on here

556
00:19:25,510 --> 00:19:24,480
this is evidence of billions of years of

557
00:19:27,270 --> 00:19:25,520
progress

558
00:19:29,990 --> 00:19:27,280
i'll stop there

559
00:19:32,150 --> 00:19:30,000
brian what are your comments on that

560
00:19:33,990 --> 00:19:32,160
well yeah you know of course with the

561
00:19:36,630 --> 00:19:34,000
definition as

562
00:19:38,789 --> 00:19:36,640
maybe one could say flexible as

563
00:19:41,510 --> 00:19:38,799
all that could you know be said to

564
00:19:42,870 --> 00:19:41,520
entail of course there's there's uh it's

565
00:19:44,710 --> 00:19:42,880
hard to disagree

566
00:19:46,310 --> 00:19:44,720
i was preferring to think about things

567
00:19:48,789 --> 00:19:46,320
you know there was a decision you you

568
00:19:51,029 --> 00:19:48,799
both are not of the united states in

569
00:19:53,270 --> 00:19:51,039
origin uh but there was a famous supreme

570
00:19:54,789 --> 00:19:53,280
court case in the 50s i think where the

571
00:19:56,150 --> 00:19:54,799
court was asked to describe what is

572
00:19:58,710 --> 00:19:56,160
pornographic

573
00:20:01,029 --> 00:19:58,720
and the upshot was that you know it when

574
00:20:03,430 --> 00:20:01,039
you see it and i think you know we can

575
00:20:05,270 --> 00:20:03,440
we can kind of uh you know debate about

576
00:20:07,190 --> 00:20:05,280
things that we know for sure aren't

577
00:20:09,750 --> 00:20:07,200
alive and we can debate about things

578
00:20:11,270 --> 00:20:09,760
that we could all say are alive and i

579
00:20:13,510 --> 00:20:11,280
think leads on to something that there

580
00:20:15,590 --> 00:20:13,520
may be a deep and

581
00:20:18,230 --> 00:20:15,600
maybe unassailable

582
00:20:19,990 --> 00:20:18,240
interplay between the

583
00:20:21,350 --> 00:20:20,000
notion of the conscious being that's

584
00:20:23,590 --> 00:20:21,360
defining life

585
00:20:26,230 --> 00:20:23,600
and the order and structure

586
00:20:30,310 --> 00:20:26,240
by which he or she ascribes that feature

587
00:20:32,630 --> 00:20:30,320
to be indicative of a biological process

588
00:20:34,950 --> 00:20:32,640
normally what i hear is well life it

589
00:20:36,470 --> 00:20:34,960
depends and even what is consciousness

590
00:20:37,909 --> 00:20:36,480
it depends and as you know kirk there

591
00:20:40,149 --> 00:20:37,919
are people that believe you know the

592
00:20:42,149 --> 00:20:40,159
quarks in the cup that lee was holding

593
00:20:44,870 --> 00:20:42,159
up are a lot or have consciousness in

594
00:20:47,270 --> 00:20:44,880
the pan cyclist format i don't know if

595
00:20:49,270 --> 00:20:47,280
lee believes that or not uh but uh but i

596
00:20:51,669 --> 00:20:49,280
i would suspect not yes he's shaking his

597
00:20:53,350 --> 00:20:51,679
head so i think uh what i think is

598
00:20:57,190 --> 00:20:53,360
important is that we all sort of can

599
00:20:59,669 --> 00:20:57,200
recognize the boundary cases um as not

600
00:21:01,029 --> 00:20:59,679
or or yes certainly affirming to be of

601
00:21:02,950 --> 00:21:01,039
life and it's kind of like you know

602
00:21:04,549 --> 00:21:02,960
these debates about you know uh like

603
00:21:06,789 --> 00:21:04,559
think about abortion abortion is really

604
00:21:08,470 --> 00:21:06,799
controversial here in america um nobody

605
00:21:11,590 --> 00:21:08,480
would say before your parents met each

606
00:21:13,669 --> 00:21:11,600
other uh that you were an organism you

607
00:21:15,590 --> 00:21:13,679
were a baby and nobody would say after

608
00:21:17,990 --> 00:21:15,600
you know ten months out of the womb that

609
00:21:19,430 --> 00:21:18,000
you're not a living being so it's in the

610
00:21:21,350 --> 00:21:19,440
it's in the superposition the

611
00:21:23,029 --> 00:21:21,360
schrodinger state where it can be is it

612
00:21:25,190 --> 00:21:23,039
alive is it that's where the ambiguity

613
00:21:28,149 --> 00:21:25,200
comes in and the human brain as lee

614
00:21:30,950 --> 00:21:28,159
knows and you know too uh kurt

615
00:21:32,470 --> 00:21:30,960
hates ambiguity we force patterns on top

616
00:21:34,710 --> 00:21:32,480
of things the ambiguity bias is a

617
00:21:37,669 --> 00:21:34,720
well-known psychological affair so the

618
00:21:38,789 --> 00:21:37,679
question is not are the edge cases alive

619
00:21:41,029 --> 00:21:38,799
um

620
00:21:43,110 --> 00:21:41,039
but are the you know how do we how do we

621
00:21:45,430 --> 00:21:43,120
parse and split with granularity that's

622
00:21:47,830 --> 00:21:45,440
sufficient to provide the satisfaction

623
00:21:49,830 --> 00:21:47,840
morally and and intellectually that

624
00:21:52,470 --> 00:21:49,840
we're actually making progress so i like

625
00:21:54,549 --> 00:21:52,480
that lee began or you know uh originally

626
00:21:55,669 --> 00:21:54,559
he mentioned the drake equation

627
00:21:57,350 --> 00:21:55,679
and we should we should actually go

628
00:21:59,270 --> 00:21:57,360
through that and what that entails

629
00:22:00,789 --> 00:21:59,280
because i think in that realm my field

630
00:22:03,909 --> 00:22:00,799
not me specifically i don't study the

631
00:22:06,710 --> 00:22:03,919
origin of life or technology et cetera

632
00:22:08,470 --> 00:22:06,720
it has has brought the most to bear

633
00:22:10,710 --> 00:22:08,480
the field of astrophysics again not what

634
00:22:12,630 --> 00:22:10,720
i do but the many terms in the drake

635
00:22:14,630 --> 00:22:12,640
equation have been reduced in their

636
00:22:17,190 --> 00:22:14,640
uncertainty has come from astrophysics

637
00:22:19,029 --> 00:22:17,200
not from chemistry not from biology et

638
00:22:20,390 --> 00:22:19,039
cetera you know from discoveries that

639
00:22:22,310 --> 00:22:20,400
have been made by my colleagues not by

640
00:22:24,870 --> 00:22:22,320
me again so i think what's what's

641
00:22:27,029 --> 00:22:24,880
important is that we we all can first

642
00:22:27,990 --> 00:22:27,039
agree on the baseline definitions on the

643
00:22:30,070 --> 00:22:28,000
pitch

644
00:22:32,549 --> 00:22:30,080
which is that you know living things we

645
00:22:34,870 --> 00:22:32,559
we have some vague notion of what living

646
00:22:36,310 --> 00:22:34,880
things are and i think the only thing i

647
00:22:37,750 --> 00:22:36,320
was a little discouraged and what lee

648
00:22:40,149 --> 00:22:37,760
said originally was he doesn't want to

649
00:22:41,669 --> 00:22:40,159
talk about the origin of life and i feel

650
00:22:43,270 --> 00:22:41,679
like all these things are kind of

651
00:22:45,990 --> 00:22:43,280
interrelated there are classic chicken

652
00:22:46,789 --> 00:22:46,000
or egg type problems you know and and i

653
00:22:49,430 --> 00:22:46,799
think

654
00:22:51,350 --> 00:22:49,440
life chemistry etc has has a great deal

655
00:22:54,310 --> 00:22:51,360
to say and i'm i'm doubly surprised

656
00:22:57,110 --> 00:22:54,320
because in leigh's phenomenal ted talk

657
00:23:00,470 --> 00:22:57,120
from 2011 september 9th 2011 my 40th

658
00:23:02,549 --> 00:23:00,480
birthday uh he goes on and tells chris

659
00:23:04,070 --> 00:23:02,559
anderson in front of a live audience

660
00:23:06,789 --> 00:23:04,080
that within two years he's going to be

661
00:23:09,669 --> 00:23:06,799
able to make life in his laboratory and

662
00:23:12,149 --> 00:23:09,679
i don't think necessarily that you would

663
00:23:14,470 --> 00:23:12,159
claim that to be a successful bet at

664
00:23:16,789 --> 00:23:14,480
this point lee but i'd love to know what

665
00:23:18,710 --> 00:23:16,799
what is and i'm not criticizing you uh

666
00:23:21,190 --> 00:23:18,720
merely bringing up the fact that there

667
00:23:23,350 --> 00:23:21,200
is a tendency mostly in my field to have

668
00:23:26,630 --> 00:23:23,360
things like the god equation the god

669
00:23:28,710 --> 00:23:26,640
particle uh the mind of god and the god

670
00:23:30,630 --> 00:23:28,720
all these things the hype that we have

671
00:23:32,149 --> 00:23:30,640
in the field of cosmology kurt is

672
00:23:33,430 --> 00:23:32,159
unparalleled

673
00:23:36,710 --> 00:23:33,440
and i worry

674
00:23:38,630 --> 00:23:36,720
that if we um if we don't avoid that in

675
00:23:40,950 --> 00:23:38,640
kind of the essence of describing the

676
00:23:42,230 --> 00:23:40,960
origin of life evolution of life aliens

677
00:23:43,990 --> 00:23:42,240
ufos all the things we're going to talk

678
00:23:45,669 --> 00:23:44,000
about today i hope we will because it's

679
00:23:47,110 --> 00:23:45,679
so fascinating and has driven me since i

680
00:23:48,710 --> 00:23:47,120
was a kid

681
00:23:50,230 --> 00:23:48,720
nevertheless there is a tendency and a

682
00:23:52,710 --> 00:23:50,240
propensity for us to believe what we

683
00:23:55,430 --> 00:23:52,720
want to believe and maybe put things in

684
00:23:56,390 --> 00:23:55,440
the file drawer that we find discrepant

685
00:23:58,230 --> 00:23:56,400
and so

686
00:24:00,149 --> 00:23:58,240
i would just say i think it is important

687
00:24:01,510 --> 00:24:00,159
that we talk about the origin of life i

688
00:24:02,870 --> 00:24:01,520
think that's a crucial question and i

689
00:24:05,190 --> 00:24:02,880
think there's no one better on earth to

690
00:24:06,950 --> 00:24:05,200
talk to than lee

691
00:24:09,510 --> 00:24:06,960
i'm sure there are many better people to

692
00:24:11,350 --> 00:24:09,520
talk to let's unpack it then unpack it

693
00:24:13,110 --> 00:24:11,360
so yeah the ted talk i really enjoyed

694
00:24:13,990 --> 00:24:13,120
doing the ted talk i was the first staff

695
00:24:15,590 --> 00:24:14,000
at the

696
00:24:17,590 --> 00:24:15,600
tech global that year the first start

697
00:24:19,190 --> 00:24:17,600
from the start of origins um i actually

698
00:24:21,190 --> 00:24:19,200
meant what i meant

699
00:24:23,269 --> 00:24:21,200
and what i said before and it sounds

700
00:24:24,870 --> 00:24:23,279
like a cop-out politician you know

701
00:24:28,230 --> 00:24:24,880
you know boris johnson's like i didn't

702
00:24:29,510 --> 00:24:28,240
know it was a party um i i i met so what

703
00:24:31,750 --> 00:24:29,520
i was trying to make is two important

704
00:24:33,909 --> 00:24:31,760
points and number one is that uh that i

705
00:24:35,590 --> 00:24:33,919
think the origin of life is fast

706
00:24:37,350 --> 00:24:35,600
and once i've worked out how to set up

707
00:24:38,710 --> 00:24:37,360
the engine i'm building a uh

708
00:24:41,110 --> 00:24:38,720
evolutionary engine it will take a

709
00:24:42,950 --> 00:24:41,120
couple of years i stand by that

710
00:24:44,470 --> 00:24:42,960
and it has been two years it's been 10

711
00:24:45,830 --> 00:24:44,480
years but in the 10 years i've had to

712
00:24:48,070 --> 00:24:45,840
design a programming language for

713
00:24:49,510 --> 00:24:48,080
chemistry in lab and find the money and

714
00:24:52,070 --> 00:24:49,520
when i went to get money from people and

715
00:24:54,310 --> 00:24:52,080
i said hey guys do you want to invest in

716
00:24:56,230 --> 00:24:54,320
the origin of life their eyes glaze over

717
00:24:57,830 --> 00:24:56,240
and they said and i said okay

718
00:24:59,909 --> 00:24:57,840
do you want to invest in drug discovery

719
00:25:01,750 --> 00:24:59,919
oh yeah good so what i've been doing

720
00:25:03,430 --> 00:25:01,760
over the years is actually building this

721
00:25:04,710 --> 00:25:03,440
technology now exists in the lab and i'm

722
00:25:06,710 --> 00:25:04,720
super excited

723
00:25:08,630 --> 00:25:06,720
now i made a major error

724
00:25:10,870 --> 00:25:08,640
many major errors i mean i completely

725
00:25:12,230 --> 00:25:10,880
conceived i wasn't over hyping saying it

726
00:25:13,830 --> 00:25:12,240
was j you can watch a video i was

727
00:25:15,110 --> 00:25:13,840
generally like i wasn't expecting that

728
00:25:17,830 --> 00:25:15,120
question i was like i don't know two

729
00:25:18,789 --> 00:25:17,840
years why not that's cool let's let's go

730
00:25:24,710 --> 00:25:18,799
um

731
00:25:27,510 --> 00:25:24,720
had an intuition

732
00:25:30,149 --> 00:25:27,520
um about what what to look for but i

733
00:25:32,870 --> 00:25:30,159
didn't really have an experiment okay

734
00:25:34,950 --> 00:25:32,880
um i didn't have a theory

735
00:25:37,269 --> 00:25:34,960
i didn't have a model

736
00:25:38,549 --> 00:25:37,279
and i didn't have a threshold and i was

737
00:25:42,149 --> 00:25:38,559
like

738
00:25:43,750 --> 00:25:42,159
what do you mean by threshold you didn't

739
00:25:45,510 --> 00:25:43,760
have a threshold i'll come to that in a

740
00:25:46,630 --> 00:25:45,520
second so i was like holy i have

741
00:25:48,070 --> 00:25:46,640
nothing

742
00:25:50,470 --> 00:25:48,080
right and then you think then i looked

743
00:25:52,789 --> 00:25:50,480
at cern and how they did it so nasa

744
00:25:54,870 --> 00:25:52,799
nasa couldn't find the origin of life

745
00:25:56,310 --> 00:25:54,880
that oh sorry alien never life dependent

746
00:25:58,230 --> 00:25:56,320
on it because they're like oh is it is

747
00:26:00,710 --> 00:25:58,240
it green is it a micro tube is it

748
00:26:01,830 --> 00:26:00,720
fostering is it actually to be fair nasa

749
00:26:04,230 --> 00:26:01,840
didn't say anything about phosphate

750
00:26:07,830 --> 00:26:04,240
we'll come to that but inspired by the

751
00:26:09,669 --> 00:26:07,840
machine that is was the lhc

752
00:26:11,830 --> 00:26:09,679
they have the one of the best press

753
00:26:14,630 --> 00:26:11,840
officers ever they had the standard

754
00:26:17,190 --> 00:26:14,640
model it was a beautiful model

755
00:26:19,190 --> 00:26:17,200
they had them uh they had a theory sorry

756
00:26:20,710 --> 00:26:19,200
which gave rise to the standard model

757
00:26:22,630 --> 00:26:20,720
they were able to simulate the standard

758
00:26:24,630 --> 00:26:22,640
model work out what energy range in

759
00:26:28,029 --> 00:26:24,640
which to find the higgs so then had an

760
00:26:31,110 --> 00:26:28,039
experiment build a collider go to

761
00:26:34,390 --> 00:26:31,120
138.5 gev you have a better memory for

762
00:26:36,070 --> 00:26:34,400
this than i do but there find a peak

763
00:26:40,070 --> 00:26:36,080
get it 11 sigma

764
00:26:42,230 --> 00:26:40,080
higgs job done um you've got it so what

765
00:26:43,990 --> 00:26:42,240
i was going to say is to reassure brian

766
00:26:45,350 --> 00:26:44,000
or to make him decide

767
00:26:47,350 --> 00:26:45,360
we're not just going for the origin of

768
00:26:48,789 --> 00:26:47,360
life we're going for the phenomena that

769
00:26:50,950 --> 00:26:48,799
produces life

770
00:26:53,029 --> 00:26:50,960
in general think of it like up when you

771
00:26:54,950 --> 00:26:53,039
when you look up in the sky let's just

772
00:26:56,310 --> 00:26:54,960
imagine that we

773
00:26:57,990 --> 00:26:56,320
i don't know

774
00:27:00,149 --> 00:26:58,000
it's a few hundred thousand years from

775
00:27:01,990 --> 00:27:00,159
now and humans have emerged slightly

776
00:27:03,990 --> 00:27:02,000
later and they look up in the sky and

777
00:27:05,430 --> 00:27:04,000
all they see is the sun they don't see

778
00:27:06,789 --> 00:27:05,440
any other stars

779
00:27:08,710 --> 00:27:06,799
what they would do they'd be obsessing

780
00:27:10,549 --> 00:27:08,720
about the origin of the sun how did it

781
00:27:12,390 --> 00:27:10,559
come there's fusion where were those

782
00:27:14,789 --> 00:27:12,400
hydrogen atoms those damn hydrogen atoms

783
00:27:16,789 --> 00:27:14,799
how did it happen and then fusion came

784
00:27:17,990 --> 00:27:16,799
but now we look up and say there's a sun

785
00:27:20,149 --> 00:27:18,000
that's cool and they go over there

786
00:27:22,149 --> 00:27:20,159
there's a sun look one's just died ones

787
00:27:24,230 --> 00:27:22,159
have started one's died so what i'm

788
00:27:26,310 --> 00:27:24,240
trying to say is of course i'm studying

789
00:27:27,830 --> 00:27:26,320
the origin of life but i'm not just

790
00:27:29,430 --> 00:27:27,840
studying the origin of life i'm under

791
00:27:32,070 --> 00:27:29,440
understanding the emergence of life in

792
00:27:33,909 --> 00:27:32,080
general so i can do statistics and all i

793
00:27:35,190 --> 00:27:33,919
can do in my lab is build the experiment

794
00:27:37,669 --> 00:27:35,200
so now

795
00:27:40,549 --> 00:27:37,679
i like okay i need to build a life

796
00:27:42,390 --> 00:27:40,559
a life generator so what i need to build

797
00:27:45,110 --> 00:27:42,400
a simulator of planet earth have a lot

798
00:27:46,950 --> 00:27:45,120
of pots load of warm ponds programming

799
00:27:49,269 --> 00:27:46,960
language pumps and valves doing all the

800
00:27:51,750 --> 00:27:49,279
chemistry for you know but i don't have

801
00:27:53,190 --> 00:27:51,760
a planet or 200 million years i have

802
00:27:55,909 --> 00:27:53,200
some grad students

803
00:27:57,909 --> 00:27:55,919
brilliant grad students 25 of them

804
00:27:59,909 --> 00:27:57,919
and and four years so then i'm

805
00:28:01,750 --> 00:27:59,919
multiplexing it so i've got i've got a

806
00:28:04,630 --> 00:28:01,760
kind of theory which is comp

807
00:28:06,630 --> 00:28:04,640
unreasonable complexity that's my theory

808
00:28:08,870 --> 00:28:06,640
my model is to go and then

809
00:28:11,830 --> 00:28:08,880
generate networks of molecules that will

810
00:28:14,149 --> 00:28:11,840
produce that unreasonable complexity

811
00:28:16,789 --> 00:28:14,159
i then have a threshold which i can talk

812
00:28:19,269 --> 00:28:16,799
about which is i kind of i published a

813
00:28:20,630 --> 00:28:19,279
paper last year alien meter that kind of

814
00:28:23,350 --> 00:28:20,640
works for life

815
00:28:24,630 --> 00:28:23,360
and i now should go run it and i you

816
00:28:26,630 --> 00:28:24,640
know i mean i've done this as time

817
00:28:29,350 --> 00:28:26,640
stamped as 2022 we're getting old all

818
00:28:31,750 --> 00:28:29,360
the time but i will let you know i will

819
00:28:32,789 --> 00:28:31,760
tweet when the experiment is ready to

820
00:28:34,630 --> 00:28:32,799
start

821
00:28:36,549 --> 00:28:34,640
and i'm going to connect my complexity

822
00:28:37,590 --> 00:28:36,559
to twitter and it's just going to talk

823
00:28:39,430 --> 00:28:37,600
right there the chemistry that comes out

824
00:28:40,950 --> 00:28:39,440
says be random and what you need to do

825
00:28:43,350 --> 00:28:40,960
is look at that twitter account and when

826
00:28:45,430 --> 00:28:43,360
when it starts writing or when you see

827
00:28:48,230 --> 00:28:45,440
patterns in the tweets you'll know a

828
00:28:50,389 --> 00:28:48,240
life form has emerged in glasgow so yes

829
00:28:53,510 --> 00:28:50,399
we are doing origin of life

830
00:28:56,310 --> 00:28:53,520
um but i want to frame it more broadly

831
00:28:57,990 --> 00:28:56,320
and i also think that um

832
00:29:00,950 --> 00:28:58,000
i would like to kind of just suggest

833
00:29:02,549 --> 00:29:00,960
that you know the it's a it is quick so

834
00:29:05,190 --> 00:29:02,559
the two years i promised that the ted

835
00:29:07,110 --> 00:29:05,200
talk is correct and as brian knows from

836
00:29:09,269 --> 00:29:07,120
doing big experiments political and all

837
00:29:10,950 --> 00:29:09,279
sorts of things which two years are the

838
00:29:12,870 --> 00:29:10,960
most important

839
00:29:15,110 --> 00:29:12,880
that's right they always say you know x

840
00:29:17,990 --> 00:29:15,120
experiment you know our x discovery is

841
00:29:20,310 --> 00:29:18,000
is uh ten years uh from now and it will

842
00:29:22,070 --> 00:29:20,320
always be so uh but lee let me you know

843
00:29:24,630 --> 00:29:22,080
i love you and i'm gonna keep uh harping

844
00:29:26,950 --> 00:29:24,640
on that fact um so nature's under no

845
00:29:29,590 --> 00:29:26,960
obligation to you know fulfill things on

846
00:29:31,750 --> 00:29:29,600
our grant schedules on our on our you

847
00:29:33,669 --> 00:29:31,760
know biological clocks which is a kosher

848
00:29:35,430 --> 00:29:33,679
form of clock as far as i'm concerned

849
00:29:37,350 --> 00:29:35,440
but um but i want to take you back to

850
00:29:39,750 --> 00:29:37,360
1854

851
00:29:41,590 --> 00:29:39,760
when a fellow scotsman a brilliant lad

852
00:29:43,190 --> 00:29:41,600
just like yourself sir

853
00:29:45,269 --> 00:29:43,200
and he was working away and he

854
00:29:47,269 --> 00:29:45,279
discovered these four laws that are

855
00:29:49,590 --> 00:29:47,279
eponymously named at the maxwell

856
00:29:51,510 --> 00:29:49,600
equations and james clerk was working

857
00:29:54,190 --> 00:29:51,520
away and he discovered that and he said

858
00:29:56,710 --> 00:29:54,200
these imply and impute the laws of

859
00:29:59,350 --> 00:29:56,720
electromagnetic radiation

860
00:30:01,750 --> 00:29:59,360
and how can they propagate through the

861
00:30:03,830 --> 00:30:01,760
seeming void that separates us from the

862
00:30:06,310 --> 00:30:03,840
sun from all these objects that lee's

863
00:30:08,470 --> 00:30:06,320
already described well it must be the

864
00:30:11,190 --> 00:30:08,480
luminiferous ether the vitreous the

865
00:30:13,590 --> 00:30:11,200
virtuous electromagnetic ether

866
00:30:15,190 --> 00:30:13,600
and he said well how does that work and

867
00:30:17,990 --> 00:30:15,200
he went through it and he had this

868
00:30:20,149 --> 00:30:18,000
system of vortices gears pulleys and

869
00:30:21,750 --> 00:30:20,159
ropes and so forth on a microscopic

870
00:30:24,310 --> 00:30:21,760
level which is totally laughable so now

871
00:30:26,070 --> 00:30:24,320
imagine leave twitter existed back then

872
00:30:28,470 --> 00:30:26,080
or how about if twitter existed when

873
00:30:31,590 --> 00:30:28,480
darwin wrote his letter to was it huxley

874
00:30:33,029 --> 00:30:31,600
uh leo correa about the warm little pond

875
00:30:35,029 --> 00:30:33,039
and he said oh it's an if and it's a

876
00:30:37,110 --> 00:30:35,039
very big if and what if you know there

877
00:30:39,190 --> 00:30:37,120
was a twitter you know bot connected to

878
00:30:42,389 --> 00:30:39,200
darwin's warm little pawn in the 1840s

879
00:30:46,070 --> 00:30:42,399
1850s or what if miller yuri by the way

880
00:30:48,549 --> 00:30:46,080
yuri was stanley uh was was uh uh lee uh

881
00:30:50,950 --> 00:30:48,559
yuri who was harold urie rather who was

882
00:30:52,549 --> 00:30:50,960
at uc san diego a mile from my office

883
00:30:53,830 --> 00:30:52,559
here and he at our chemistry

884
00:30:55,750 --> 00:30:53,840
department's named yuri hall and he

885
00:30:57,430 --> 00:30:55,760
worked as grad student stanley miller

886
00:30:59,269 --> 00:30:57,440
and they came up with this famous miller

887
00:31:01,029 --> 00:30:59,279
yuri experiment which sounds an awful

888
00:31:04,149 --> 00:31:01,039
lot except for the existence of a of a

889
00:31:05,750 --> 00:31:04,159
computing machine next to it 1951. and

890
00:31:07,269 --> 00:31:05,760
uh and you could have turned it on and

891
00:31:09,669 --> 00:31:07,279
and maybe connected it to a turing

892
00:31:11,350 --> 00:31:09,679
machine that could then tweet uh and and

893
00:31:13,029 --> 00:31:11,360
that would then you know here we are

894
00:31:15,110 --> 00:31:13,039
here's the uh here's the you know

895
00:31:16,870 --> 00:31:15,120
prototype of life coming out and it's

896
00:31:19,669 --> 00:31:16,880
now it's doing something complex

897
00:31:21,750 --> 00:31:19,679
organized reducing of entropy collecting

898
00:31:23,269 --> 00:31:21,760
information and providing surprise i

899
00:31:25,350 --> 00:31:23,279
think that's important

900
00:31:26,789 --> 00:31:25,360
and it'd be totally far off from the way

901
00:31:28,389 --> 00:31:26,799
we actually believe and correct me if

902
00:31:29,669 --> 00:31:28,399
i'm wrongly but

903
00:31:31,990 --> 00:31:29,679
i'm going to be bold because kurt's

904
00:31:33,990 --> 00:31:32,000
paying us you know handsomely to be

905
00:31:36,389 --> 00:31:34,000
aggressive and i'm gonna say i don't

906
00:31:37,990 --> 00:31:36,399
think we've made any progress in this

907
00:31:40,870 --> 00:31:38,000
type of field

908
00:31:42,630 --> 00:31:40,880
of miller yuri darwinian warm little

909
00:31:43,909 --> 00:31:42,640
pools since

910
00:31:46,230 --> 00:31:43,919
you know since those original

911
00:31:48,230 --> 00:31:46,240
conjectures i think they've been shown

912
00:31:49,750 --> 00:31:48,240
to be wrong not you know scientific

913
00:31:51,909 --> 00:31:49,760
fraud but

914
00:31:53,029 --> 00:31:51,919
there's no evidence that those chemicals

915
00:31:54,789 --> 00:31:53,039
even if they could be providing

916
00:31:56,630 --> 00:31:54,799
sterilized little beakers that i get at

917
00:31:58,149 --> 00:31:56,640
my chemistry stockroom and you get in

918
00:31:59,909 --> 00:31:58,159
your chemistry stockroom with pipettes

919
00:32:01,269 --> 00:31:59,919
that are cleaned and connected to it to

920
00:32:04,310 --> 00:32:01,279
an autoclave

921
00:32:06,230 --> 00:32:04,320
that even so they can reproduce actual

922
00:32:07,990 --> 00:32:06,240
living organisms correct me if i'm wrong

923
00:32:11,269 --> 00:32:08,000
i'm ready for the arrows

924
00:32:13,509 --> 00:32:11,279
no i mean look so i i don't want to so

925
00:32:15,509 --> 00:32:13,519
there's i'm stuck here as a chemist i

926
00:32:17,909 --> 00:32:15,519
mean chemists have made an incredible

927
00:32:21,029 --> 00:32:17,919
achievement since the time of mili yuri

928
00:32:22,710 --> 00:32:21,039
right i think the the the the

929
00:32:23,990 --> 00:32:22,720
the problem is

930
00:32:26,549 --> 00:32:24,000
um

931
00:32:29,509 --> 00:32:26,559
the let me yeah so the the experiments

932
00:32:30,710 --> 00:32:29,519
that meliuria did was a bit like um

933
00:32:32,630 --> 00:32:30,720
you doing

934
00:32:33,669 --> 00:32:32,640
the bicep one pro

935
00:32:36,230 --> 00:32:33,679
project

936
00:32:37,830 --> 00:32:36,240
in 1950 and the technology wasn't there

937
00:32:39,669 --> 00:32:37,840
you kind of you we kind of understood

938
00:32:40,470 --> 00:32:39,679
polarization we understand about light

939
00:32:42,389 --> 00:32:40,480
we didn't know anything about the

940
00:32:44,230 --> 00:32:42,399
microwave background so they were they

941
00:32:46,070 --> 00:32:44,240
were kind of they were kind of visionary

942
00:32:47,990 --> 00:32:46,080
and that they had a hint that life

943
00:32:49,430 --> 00:32:48,000
existed oh sure whereas you know the

944
00:32:50,950 --> 00:32:49,440
physicists were like

945
00:32:52,789 --> 00:32:50,960
there's no you know there's no big bang

946
00:32:54,470 --> 00:32:52,799
there's just this steady state model and

947
00:32:56,310 --> 00:32:54,480
all this stuff so they were kind of head

948
00:32:57,990 --> 00:32:56,320
of the physics at that time and so what

949
00:33:00,310 --> 00:32:58,000
they did they were a victim of their own

950
00:33:03,750 --> 00:33:00,320
naivety of simplification

951
00:33:05,430 --> 00:33:03,760
and so and so the the the progress that

952
00:33:06,710 --> 00:33:05,440
was made there is they just said okay

953
00:33:08,789 --> 00:33:06,720
we'll just take some very basic

954
00:33:09,909 --> 00:33:08,799
molecules and put them in a flask and

955
00:33:11,909 --> 00:33:09,919
heat them so the middle of your

956
00:33:15,430 --> 00:33:11,919
experiment is literally

957
00:33:17,110 --> 00:33:15,440
a big bell jar with a cycle or circuit

958
00:33:21,190 --> 00:33:17,120
we've got a heater and you have some

959
00:33:22,710 --> 00:33:21,200
water methane hydrogen ammonia okay and

960
00:33:25,029 --> 00:33:22,720
these are the elements you need for most

961
00:33:27,750 --> 00:33:25,039
amino acids which will have carbon

962
00:33:29,110 --> 00:33:27,760
hydrogen nitrogen oxygen some have

963
00:33:30,870 --> 00:33:29,120
sulfur in it but let's leave those out

964
00:33:32,950 --> 00:33:30,880
here they didn't put any sulfur in and

965
00:33:35,029 --> 00:33:32,960
so what they showed was something that i

966
00:33:37,430 --> 00:33:35,039
i am i love mathematics i'm a much

967
00:33:38,789 --> 00:33:37,440
better kind of a computer scientist and

968
00:33:40,789 --> 00:33:38,799
mathematician and i am a kind of

969
00:33:42,870 --> 00:33:40,799
historical chemist so for me when

970
00:33:45,830 --> 00:33:42,880
someone says oh here's some glycine

971
00:33:47,990 --> 00:33:45,840
glycine is the simplest amino acid um

972
00:33:50,630 --> 00:33:48,000
conventory it's easy to get it's like

973
00:33:52,789 --> 00:33:50,640
maybe flicking three or four heads in a

974
00:33:55,669 --> 00:33:52,799
row with a coin flip

975
00:33:58,070 --> 00:33:55,679
okay so and and they did this with a lot

976
00:33:59,830 --> 00:33:58,080
of the amino acids and so the chemists

977
00:34:01,750 --> 00:33:59,840
kind of they made this and it was still

978
00:34:03,669 --> 00:34:01,760
remarkable because whoa

979
00:34:05,990 --> 00:34:03,679
these simple things can make amino acids

980
00:34:08,230 --> 00:34:06,000
amino acids are in proteins is there a

981
00:34:10,470 --> 00:34:08,240
link well of course there's a link in so

982
00:34:12,550 --> 00:34:10,480
far as the atoms in that jar can find

983
00:34:15,030 --> 00:34:12,560
their way into amino acids but we know

984
00:34:16,470 --> 00:34:15,040
that life isn't about amino acids

985
00:34:19,109 --> 00:34:16,480
life is something

986
00:34:21,030 --> 00:34:19,119
different right and so i don't think

987
00:34:23,990 --> 00:34:21,040
they've failed i think the chemists have

988
00:34:26,790 --> 00:34:24,000
been asked to develop a philosophy or

989
00:34:27,829 --> 00:34:26,800
develop a an ontology that just didn't

990
00:34:29,669 --> 00:34:27,839
exist

991
00:34:31,030 --> 00:34:29,679
and i think that that so i you know and

992
00:34:32,310 --> 00:34:31,040
i think the chemists are doing brilliant

993
00:34:34,389 --> 00:34:32,320
things now what's happened in the 50

994
00:34:35,909 --> 00:34:34,399
years well chemists have gone on and

995
00:34:37,349 --> 00:34:35,919
cured disease and made interesting

996
00:34:39,510 --> 00:34:37,359
molecules and we all know that i'm not

997
00:34:40,629 --> 00:34:39,520
here to defend them but the analysis has

998
00:34:41,750 --> 00:34:40,639
got better

999
00:34:43,430 --> 00:34:41,760
but leo

1000
00:34:45,030 --> 00:34:43,440
aren't you guys still now with things

1001
00:34:47,190 --> 00:34:45,040
like the rna world which we have to

1002
00:34:49,909 --> 00:34:47,200
discuss i mean isn't it just redux this

1003
00:34:52,069 --> 00:34:49,919
this you know redux reaction now what

1004
00:34:54,149 --> 00:34:52,079
was the miller uri amino acid now oh now

1005
00:34:55,750 --> 00:34:54,159
we know the secret is rna

1006
00:34:58,230 --> 00:34:55,760
so i would say

1007
00:35:02,950 --> 00:35:00,069
within every field so i'm going to try

1008
00:35:05,190 --> 00:35:02,960
and do this as delicately as possible um

1009
00:35:07,589 --> 00:35:05,200
with every field you have a field that

1010
00:35:09,190 --> 00:35:07,599
gets stuck and they are and the origin

1011
00:35:11,270 --> 00:35:09,200
of life chemists are really interested

1012
00:35:14,550 --> 00:35:11,280
in commentary or chemistry the easiest

1013
00:35:16,630 --> 00:35:14,560
route to x y and z and then and they see

1014
00:35:18,790 --> 00:35:16,640
a series of smoking guns and the thing

1015
00:35:21,030 --> 00:35:18,800
is i'm sure that brian and i readily

1016
00:35:23,430 --> 00:35:21,040
agree that rna is not the answer to the

1017
00:35:24,870 --> 00:35:23,440
origin of life but i think i have an

1018
00:35:26,870 --> 00:35:24,880
understanding of the underlying

1019
00:35:29,510 --> 00:35:26,880
theoretical framework and that's what

1020
00:35:32,230 --> 00:35:29,520
i'm going to push brian on in just one

1021
00:35:33,910 --> 00:35:32,240
moment so life has little to do with the

1022
00:35:37,030 --> 00:35:33,920
actual specific molecules it's a bit

1023
00:35:38,790 --> 00:35:37,040
like saying i can only make a motor car

1024
00:35:41,270 --> 00:35:38,800
that's you know i don't know let's take

1025
00:35:43,430 --> 00:35:41,280
a bmw i discover a bmw or then i

1026
00:35:45,589 --> 00:35:43,440
discover a tesla right

1027
00:35:47,910 --> 00:35:45,599
the only the you know the the ora does

1028
00:35:50,069 --> 00:35:47,920
say there's the origin of automobiles on

1029
00:35:52,310 --> 00:35:50,079
planet out there and it's it you know

1030
00:35:53,990 --> 00:35:52,320
there's no space for tesla it's just bmw

1031
00:35:55,829 --> 00:35:54,000
or there's no space for a bmw it's just

1032
00:35:57,750 --> 00:35:55,839
tesla there's only one way of doing it

1033
00:35:59,109 --> 00:35:57,760
or kurt's lamborghini or curtis and

1034
00:36:01,589 --> 00:35:59,119
lamborghini

1035
00:36:03,910 --> 00:36:01,599
my son is into ferrari it's like that is

1036
00:36:06,790 --> 00:36:03,920
like ferrari all the way he's getting a

1037
00:36:08,150 --> 00:36:06,800
midlife crisis at age 10.

1038
00:36:09,589 --> 00:36:08,160
there's not one way of solving that

1039
00:36:11,270 --> 00:36:09,599
chemical problem and why i'm here to

1040
00:36:13,990 --> 00:36:11,280
reassure brian on he's like whoa

1041
00:36:16,150 --> 00:36:14,000
chemistry is special like it's not

1042
00:36:19,109 --> 00:36:16,160
the problem that chemists have

1043
00:36:21,430 --> 00:36:19,119
is that they um they're they are playing

1044
00:36:22,870 --> 00:36:21,440
around in the mess in the middle so here

1045
00:36:25,589 --> 00:36:22,880
let me just frame the whole discipline

1046
00:36:27,430 --> 00:36:25,599
i'm my my ambition in my lifetime is not

1047
00:36:29,670 --> 00:36:27,440
only to get to solve the origin of life

1048
00:36:32,150 --> 00:36:29,680
and make artificial life and find aliens

1049
00:36:33,190 --> 00:36:32,160
those three things are needed i think

1050
00:36:34,630 --> 00:36:33,200
together

1051
00:36:37,270 --> 00:36:34,640
um because not one of them is going to

1052
00:36:39,430 --> 00:36:37,280
be acceptable i think and also as the

1053
00:36:40,710 --> 00:36:39,440
alien discussion is going in our popular

1054
00:36:42,710 --> 00:36:40,720
culture right now this is something that

1055
00:36:44,630 --> 00:36:42,720
sarah walker has pointed out to me many

1056
00:36:47,270 --> 00:36:44,640
times it's really interesting that

1057
00:36:49,270 --> 00:36:47,280
people are excited about aliens and i

1058
00:36:51,109 --> 00:36:49,280
kind of disagree with brian a little bit

1059
00:36:52,950 --> 00:36:51,119
he says if people just get

1060
00:36:54,790 --> 00:36:52,960
find an alien life form they won't care

1061
00:36:57,349 --> 00:36:54,800
they will but it needs to be framed

1062
00:36:59,990 --> 00:36:57,359
properly because people want to know

1063
00:37:01,829 --> 00:37:00,000
they want meaning um so going back to

1064
00:37:02,790 --> 00:37:01,839
this origin of life and why is it wrong

1065
00:37:04,710 --> 00:37:02,800
well

1066
00:37:07,190 --> 00:37:04,720
physicists deal with

1067
00:37:09,270 --> 00:37:07,200
low memory systems right that's why we

1068
00:37:10,790 --> 00:37:09,280
call them low memory systems physicists

1069
00:37:12,310 --> 00:37:10,800
themselves are very high memory

1070
00:37:14,390 --> 00:37:12,320
individuals right they have to be good

1071
00:37:16,390 --> 00:37:14,400
at mathematics and modeling and so on

1072
00:37:20,150 --> 00:37:16,400
low memory systems that means a few

1073
00:37:21,190 --> 00:37:20,160
equations can broadly tell show you how

1074
00:37:22,470 --> 00:37:21,200
things work

1075
00:37:24,630 --> 00:37:22,480
not precisely

1076
00:37:25,910 --> 00:37:24,640
then you go into chemistry and chemistry

1077
00:37:27,270 --> 00:37:25,920
is a bit messier there's lots more

1078
00:37:29,349 --> 00:37:27,280
compounds in may more common to

1079
00:37:31,109 --> 00:37:29,359
explosion but again chemists alchemists

1080
00:37:33,349 --> 00:37:31,119
whatever we can make new materials

1081
00:37:36,230 --> 00:37:33,359
molecules and so on then you get to

1082
00:37:38,470 --> 00:37:36,240
biology and that's a medium memory when

1083
00:37:41,510 --> 00:37:38,480
you get to biology you have all this

1084
00:37:43,030 --> 00:37:41,520
contingency and evolution cambrian

1085
00:37:45,190 --> 00:37:43,040
explosion there are legs popping up

1086
00:37:47,589 --> 00:37:45,200
everywhere eyes everywhere things calm

1087
00:37:50,470 --> 00:37:47,599
down you get to where we we are on earth

1088
00:37:53,270 --> 00:37:50,480
with dinosaurs a chance it comes a

1089
00:37:55,670 --> 00:37:53,280
dinosaur goes extinct mammals

1090
00:37:59,349 --> 00:37:55,680
run around and suddenly we have human

1091
00:38:02,150 --> 00:37:59,359
beings uh building iphones and youtube

1092
00:38:03,109 --> 00:38:02,160
and and whatever and and i think that

1093
00:38:05,910 --> 00:38:03,119
that

1094
00:38:08,230 --> 00:38:05,920
me the memory in those increases like

1095
00:38:10,390 --> 00:38:08,240
dramatically we can't even conceive

1096
00:38:11,910 --> 00:38:10,400
because physics has not

1097
00:38:14,150 --> 00:38:11,920
i would say it's all physics fault right

1098
00:38:16,150 --> 00:38:14,160
i'm have to i'm not i'm in defense of

1099
00:38:17,829 --> 00:38:16,160
the chemist physics that doesn't doesn't

1100
00:38:21,589 --> 00:38:17,839
understand entropy it's wrong the

1101
00:38:24,069 --> 00:38:21,599
definition of entropy is wrong um sadly

1102
00:38:26,550 --> 00:38:24,079
this is huge this is really huge kurt um

1103
00:38:28,390 --> 00:38:26,560
so lee has a very provocative unorthodox

1104
00:38:29,829 --> 00:38:28,400
and not necessarily accepted within phys

1105
00:38:31,349 --> 00:38:29,839
it doesn't mean he's wrong but i think

1106
00:38:32,630 --> 00:38:31,359
we should put a pin in that and

1107
00:38:34,550 --> 00:38:32,640
definitely want to you yeah yeah

1108
00:38:36,150 --> 00:38:34,560
audience your audience needs to hear his

1109
00:38:38,310 --> 00:38:36,160
perspective and they hopefully will want

1110
00:38:39,510 --> 00:38:38,320
to hear my rebuttal too but but lee go i

1111
00:38:41,109 --> 00:38:39,520
don't want to interrupt you is this

1112
00:38:42,790 --> 00:38:41,119
related to assembly theory or is it

1113
00:38:44,790 --> 00:38:42,800
different yeah yeah it's a bit about

1114
00:38:45,829 --> 00:38:44,800
assembly i'm unsure how a definition can

1115
00:38:47,349 --> 00:38:45,839
be wrong what do you mean by the

1116
00:38:49,430 --> 00:38:47,359
definition of entropy is wrong that

1117
00:38:51,349 --> 00:38:49,440
entropy is trying to capture something

1118
00:38:53,349 --> 00:38:51,359
and the definition doesn't capture that

1119
00:38:55,589 --> 00:38:53,359
let's define entropy for a second and so

1120
00:38:57,829 --> 00:38:55,599
it's it's not the definition isn't wrong

1121
00:38:58,790 --> 00:38:57,839
it's what we need to the whole concept

1122
00:39:00,390 --> 00:38:58,800
is wrong

1123
00:39:02,069 --> 00:39:00,400
so highly it's quite it's like these are

1124
00:39:03,270 --> 00:39:02,079
career ending words right there would be

1125
00:39:05,270 --> 00:39:03,280
all the the

1126
00:39:07,190 --> 00:39:05,280
thermodynamicists out there canceling me

1127
00:39:08,630 --> 00:39:07,200
but because thermodynamicists are pretty

1128
00:39:09,670 --> 00:39:08,640
cool guys and they're like the stats

1129
00:39:11,670 --> 00:39:09,680
they're not going to cancel me they

1130
00:39:14,710 --> 00:39:11,680
might take pity on me and teach me some

1131
00:39:16,630 --> 00:39:14,720
statistical mechanics so what do i mean

1132
00:39:18,710 --> 00:39:16,640
so if you uh what is entropy first of

1133
00:39:20,069 --> 00:39:18,720
all entropy very loosely is a measure of

1134
00:39:22,790 --> 00:39:20,079
disorder

1135
00:39:24,550 --> 00:39:22,800
so and and and what we say in general i

1136
00:39:27,030 --> 00:39:24,560
take it for a process to be

1137
00:39:28,310 --> 00:39:27,040
sorry i don't think that's the case do

1138
00:39:31,190 --> 00:39:28,320
you think that's the case brian that

1139
00:39:33,030 --> 00:39:31,200
it's a measure of disorder it is yeah i

1140
00:39:35,109 --> 00:39:33,040
know that's colloquially what it is no

1141
00:39:36,470 --> 00:39:35,119
no i squirt if you the entrance so if

1142
00:39:38,550 --> 00:39:36,480
you want to calculate the entropy of

1143
00:39:40,230 --> 00:39:38,560
something you look at the state you look

1144
00:39:41,750 --> 00:39:40,240
at the actual state versus the

1145
00:39:43,910 --> 00:39:41,760
microstate versus the number of possible

1146
00:39:45,190 --> 00:39:43,920
states look at the fraction of those and

1147
00:39:47,109 --> 00:39:45,200
and basically

1148
00:39:48,870 --> 00:39:47,119
at the when you look at the entropy the

1149
00:39:50,710 --> 00:39:48,880
value it tells you how much disorder you

1150
00:39:52,550 --> 00:39:50,720
have the lower the number the lower the

1151
00:39:54,230 --> 00:39:52,560
disorder the more order the higher the

1152
00:39:55,510 --> 00:39:54,240
number the higher the disorder the

1153
00:39:57,910 --> 00:39:55,520
higher the number of arrangements that

1154
00:39:59,990 --> 00:39:57,920
is the price precise definition of

1155
00:40:01,990 --> 00:40:00,000
entropy it goes from the molecular level

1156
00:40:03,349 --> 00:40:02,000
or the atomic level all the way up to

1157
00:40:05,190 --> 00:40:03,359
the macro level kurt i should say that

1158
00:40:06,630 --> 00:40:05,200
john von neumann said nobody understands

1159
00:40:08,630 --> 00:40:06,640
entropy so if you ever discover

1160
00:40:10,550 --> 00:40:08,640
something call it entropy there's like

1161
00:40:13,030 --> 00:40:10,560
what lee eight different shannon entropy

1162
00:40:14,630 --> 00:40:13,040
von neumann oh no but let's

1163
00:40:16,069 --> 00:40:14,640
i know how you're using it i i don't i

1164
00:40:18,230 --> 00:40:16,079
don't i fundamentally disagree kurt i

1165
00:40:19,990 --> 00:40:18,240
don't this the tricky part lee i'd like

1166
00:40:21,750 --> 00:40:20,000
to some clarification is that when

1167
00:40:23,349 --> 00:40:21,760
people use the word order we have a

1168
00:40:25,030 --> 00:40:23,359
certain meaning in our everyday life in

1169
00:40:26,950 --> 00:40:25,040
our vernacular but then when we use the

1170
00:40:28,710 --> 00:40:26,960
word entropy it has a specific meaning

1171
00:40:30,230 --> 00:40:28,720
that isn't necessarily tied to order

1172
00:40:31,990 --> 00:40:30,240
though it's correlated with it and you

1173
00:40:34,150 --> 00:40:32,000
can see this with no no no we have to

1174
00:40:36,230 --> 00:40:34,160
let's go back because brian will back me

1175
00:40:38,390 --> 00:40:36,240
up here the entropy that's used in

1176
00:40:41,190 --> 00:40:38,400
information theory is not correct right

1177
00:40:43,990 --> 00:40:41,200
it is a it is a colloquialism it is not

1178
00:40:45,510 --> 00:40:44,000
anchored in physical reality what is

1179
00:40:48,390 --> 00:40:45,520
anchored in physical reality is the

1180
00:40:49,990 --> 00:40:48,400
basic idea the idea of a heat engine

1181
00:40:51,349 --> 00:40:50,000
okay so i want to talk about the heat

1182
00:40:53,510 --> 00:40:51,359
engine so basically what the

1183
00:40:55,750 --> 00:40:53,520
thermodynamic dynamicist realized if you

1184
00:40:57,750 --> 00:40:55,760
want to get maximum efficiency out of

1185
00:40:59,349 --> 00:40:57,760
your heat engine you maximize the

1186
00:41:01,030 --> 00:40:59,359
temperature difference between the two

1187
00:41:03,349 --> 00:41:01,040
parts right and then you can know if

1188
00:41:05,270 --> 00:41:03,359
it's exactly yeah sorry that's a carnal

1189
00:41:06,950 --> 00:41:05,280
efficiency right exactly and so and

1190
00:41:09,510 --> 00:41:06,960
brian is agreeing because it's right

1191
00:41:11,990 --> 00:41:09,520
it's how it works right there now

1192
00:41:13,990 --> 00:41:12,000
boltzmann came along and he realized

1193
00:41:17,270 --> 00:41:14,000
that he could derive the existence of

1194
00:41:19,829 --> 00:41:17,280
molecules of atoms from this approach

1195
00:41:22,150 --> 00:41:19,839
it's like abenitio it was amazing right

1196
00:41:23,510 --> 00:41:22,160
so you could infer that these molecules

1197
00:41:25,030 --> 00:41:23,520
are moving around and they have these

1198
00:41:26,790 --> 00:41:25,040
energies associated with them and they

1199
00:41:28,710 --> 00:41:26,800
could be added up and they would give

1200
00:41:30,630 --> 00:41:28,720
you what you measure right in by

1201
00:41:32,870 --> 00:41:30,640
experiment now

1202
00:41:36,550 --> 00:41:32,880
that's that's out there what i'm saying

1203
00:41:37,990 --> 00:41:36,560
here is human beings create the boundary

1204
00:41:40,550 --> 00:41:38,000
conditions of the engine we build the

1205
00:41:43,190 --> 00:41:40,560
engine we do work we in we interact on

1206
00:41:44,710 --> 00:41:43,200
the on the boundary conditions to make

1207
00:41:46,150 --> 00:41:44,720
things happen and then we label the

1208
00:41:48,710 --> 00:41:46,160
beginning and the end and the way we

1209
00:41:51,829 --> 00:41:48,720
label things we label things in such a

1210
00:41:53,430 --> 00:41:51,839
way as an observer that we we kind of

1211
00:41:55,750 --> 00:41:53,440
stack the deck so we always see the

1212
00:41:57,030 --> 00:41:55,760
entropy change so let's pause there

1213
00:41:59,030 --> 00:41:57,040
because that's quite a deep thing we

1214
00:42:01,109 --> 00:41:59,040
have to dig down and brian will attack

1215
00:42:03,270 --> 00:42:01,119
it in a good way because it needs

1216
00:42:05,430 --> 00:42:03,280
clarification now let's go to

1217
00:42:07,510 --> 00:42:05,440
information and entropy

1218
00:42:08,790 --> 00:42:07,520
this is where things get confusing

1219
00:42:11,349 --> 00:42:08,800
shannon

1220
00:42:14,069 --> 00:42:11,359
wanted to qualify the amount of noise in

1221
00:42:15,349 --> 00:42:14,079
a channel if we're speaking right and he

1222
00:42:17,910 --> 00:42:15,359
wanted to think about the number of

1223
00:42:20,230 --> 00:42:17,920
possible states how surprising is it if

1224
00:42:21,829 --> 00:42:20,240
i get this bit do i get that bit right

1225
00:42:23,589 --> 00:42:21,839
and what shannon was able to do is come

1226
00:42:25,750 --> 00:42:23,599
up with a very nice mathematical

1227
00:42:29,950 --> 00:42:25,760
formalism that look very similar to

1228
00:42:32,069 --> 00:42:29,960
entropy okay um on a channel but people

1229
00:42:34,309 --> 00:42:32,079
misunderstood and said that everything

1230
00:42:36,710 --> 00:42:34,319
is a communication channel but no

1231
00:42:38,630 --> 00:42:36,720
shannon says there has to be an encoder

1232
00:42:39,910 --> 00:42:38,640
and a decoder and then shannon

1233
00:42:41,829 --> 00:42:39,920
information

1234
00:42:43,910 --> 00:42:41,839
is can be used

1235
00:42:45,910 --> 00:42:43,920
only under those circumstances no

1236
00:42:47,829 --> 00:42:45,920
encoder no decode the no shannon

1237
00:42:49,510 --> 00:42:47,839
information okay

1238
00:42:51,270 --> 00:42:49,520
that's what i mean so i really wanted to

1239
00:42:53,270 --> 00:42:51,280
take that very carefully and define

1240
00:42:55,430 --> 00:42:53,280
those to the best of my ability and i'm

1241
00:42:56,790 --> 00:42:55,440
very happy for brian to correct anything

1242
00:42:58,950 --> 00:42:56,800
because he's a better teacher than i am

1243
00:43:01,190 --> 00:42:58,960
and i think on this we broadly agree

1244
00:43:03,109 --> 00:43:01,200
what the definition is i think just for

1245
00:43:04,950 --> 00:43:03,119
for kurt and for the audience who's

1246
00:43:07,030 --> 00:43:04,960
incredibly erudite second only to the

1247
00:43:08,470 --> 00:43:07,040
into the impossible podcast audience in

1248
00:43:10,069 --> 00:43:08,480
terms of eridition brilliance and

1249
00:43:11,829 --> 00:43:10,079
alacrity of brain power no i'm just

1250
00:43:13,190 --> 00:43:11,839
kidding there's a podcast that brian

1251
00:43:14,950 --> 00:43:13,200
hosts for those who are watching called

1252
00:43:16,150 --> 00:43:14,960
into the impossible and i recommend you

1253
00:43:17,589 --> 00:43:16,160
check that out i'll leave a link in the

1254
00:43:20,230 --> 00:43:17,599
description

1255
00:43:21,990 --> 00:43:20,240
and and kurt is my uh he is my thesis

1256
00:43:23,270 --> 00:43:22,000
advisor and all things in youtube has

1257
00:43:26,309 --> 00:43:23,280
really helped me tremendously and i have

1258
00:43:28,069 --> 00:43:26,319
gratitude for him um so so lee is

1259
00:43:29,750 --> 00:43:28,079
eminently correct here i think this is

1260
00:43:32,550 --> 00:43:29,760
this is absolutely something that we can

1261
00:43:35,109 --> 00:43:32,560
we can orient uh towards and and that

1262
00:43:36,470 --> 00:43:35,119
only highlights again this this very

1263
00:43:39,750 --> 00:43:36,480
delightful and delicious you have to

1264
00:43:41,990 --> 00:43:39,760
understand kurt um me and lee share one

1265
00:43:44,790 --> 00:43:42,000
thing in common the curiosity depends on

1266
00:43:46,710 --> 00:43:44,800
us being mystified stymied and perhaps

1267
00:43:48,550 --> 00:43:46,720
even deceived by nature at certain times

1268
00:43:50,710 --> 00:43:48,560
our job is to not deceive ourselves or

1269
00:43:52,950 --> 00:43:50,720
other people to get money attention fame

1270
00:43:54,790 --> 00:43:52,960
etc but in these contexts when you have

1271
00:43:56,470 --> 00:43:54,800
ambiguity again

1272
00:43:58,550 --> 00:43:56,480
lee mentioned a lot of topics in that

1273
00:44:01,190 --> 00:43:58,560
definition which is eminently correct in

1274
00:44:04,950 --> 00:44:01,200
so far as we all agree on things like

1275
00:44:06,710 --> 00:44:04,960
temperature um we agree on on basics

1276
00:44:08,069 --> 00:44:06,720
like

1277
00:44:10,790 --> 00:44:08,079
the microstate what constitutes

1278
00:44:13,670 --> 00:44:10,800
microstates distributions and

1279
00:44:16,470 --> 00:44:13,680
fundamentally if we agree on time and

1280
00:44:18,470 --> 00:44:16,480
lee has some very very again delightful

1281
00:44:20,550 --> 00:44:18,480
delicious uh you know possibly

1282
00:44:22,790 --> 00:44:20,560
delusional but but wonderful ideas about

1283
00:44:24,630 --> 00:44:22,800
time and and its fundamentality but

1284
00:44:26,550 --> 00:44:24,640
let's connect let's keep going back uh

1285
00:44:29,030 --> 00:44:26,560
to what lee said which i think is is

1286
00:44:31,349 --> 00:44:29,040
brilliant and controversial he said

1287
00:44:33,589 --> 00:44:31,359
physicists do not understand entropy

1288
00:44:35,430 --> 00:44:33,599
which implies concomitantly with that i

1289
00:44:37,829 --> 00:44:35,440
think lee you'll agree that we don't

1290
00:44:39,109 --> 00:44:37,839
understand time because time and

1291
00:44:40,470 --> 00:44:39,119
temperature i think you could say we

1292
00:44:41,829 --> 00:44:40,480
might understand but that's intimately

1293
00:44:43,829 --> 00:44:41,839
connected to molecules right you don't

1294
00:44:45,910 --> 00:44:43,839
have temperature of a single quark right

1295
00:44:48,390 --> 00:44:45,920
that's not substantive to talk about so

1296
00:44:50,069 --> 00:44:48,400
chemistry comes in and i think i would

1297
00:44:51,910 --> 00:44:50,079
disagree that you know chemists have a

1298
00:44:53,670 --> 00:44:51,920
superior understanding i think they have

1299
00:44:56,230 --> 00:44:53,680
insight that physicists do not

1300
00:44:58,150 --> 00:44:56,240
appreciate and lee is 100 correct we

1301
00:44:59,990 --> 00:44:58,160
don't appreciate this molecular story

1302
00:45:01,430 --> 00:45:00,000
and i'll just correct one thing that lee

1303
00:45:03,190 --> 00:45:01,440
said i don't think boltzmann you know

1304
00:45:04,630 --> 00:45:03,200
fundamentally you know prove the

1305
00:45:06,069 --> 00:45:04,640
existence of molecules i think that was

1306
00:45:08,630 --> 00:45:06,079
einstein later with brownie in motion

1307
00:45:10,630 --> 00:45:08,640
which was concomitant with boltzmann and

1308
00:45:12,069 --> 00:45:10,640
maxwell's earlier statistical mechanics

1309
00:45:14,390 --> 00:45:12,079
but let's just take this back to lee's

1310
00:45:16,550 --> 00:45:14,400
controversial statement which is that to

1311
00:45:18,390 --> 00:45:16,560
understand time and to understand

1312
00:45:19,990 --> 00:45:18,400
entropy we really need to understand

1313
00:45:21,270 --> 00:45:20,000
chemistry because they're all

1314
00:45:24,390 --> 00:45:21,280
fundamentally

1315
00:45:26,550 --> 00:45:24,400
pivoting on a very a very singular hinge

1316
00:45:28,790 --> 00:45:26,560
which is a chemical definition or a

1317
00:45:31,190 --> 00:45:28,800
practical working definition of entropy

1318
00:45:33,589 --> 00:45:31,200
which lee posits comes from chemistry

1319
00:45:36,230 --> 00:45:33,599
exclusively correctly

1320
00:45:37,910 --> 00:45:36,240
yeah and i think to i mean so the to

1321
00:45:40,790 --> 00:45:37,920
going back to boltzmann and the proof of

1322
00:45:41,829 --> 00:45:40,800
atoms boltzmann proved i mean you can

1323
00:45:44,630 --> 00:45:41,839
add it on

1324
00:45:47,510 --> 00:45:44,640
what einstein did that basically the

1325
00:45:49,510 --> 00:45:47,520
molecules are little microstates

1326
00:45:50,870 --> 00:45:49,520
basically and that microwave so that's a

1327
00:45:53,030 --> 00:45:50,880
good correction we must get these

1328
00:45:54,550 --> 00:45:53,040
corrections right um so going on with

1329
00:45:55,829 --> 00:45:54,560
entropy so what i was saying to you kurt

1330
00:45:58,309 --> 00:45:55,839
is that

1331
00:46:01,030 --> 00:45:58,319
when you you look at a process you say

1332
00:46:02,550 --> 00:46:01,040
oh this whole process has occurred

1333
00:46:04,150 --> 00:46:02,560
the entropy of the universe has

1334
00:46:07,430 --> 00:46:04,160
increased right it's like like some kind

1335
00:46:09,270 --> 00:46:07,440
of law and i keep saying to people

1336
00:46:10,790 --> 00:46:09,280
what is the basis for that law and this

1337
00:46:12,790 --> 00:46:10,800
is really tricky so we get to a circular

1338
00:46:14,470 --> 00:46:12,800
argument people say well of course if we

1339
00:46:16,950 --> 00:46:14,480
do the statistics

1340
00:46:18,630 --> 00:46:16,960
what we do is we count everything up

1341
00:46:20,069 --> 00:46:18,640
in their in their and put them in you

1342
00:46:21,750 --> 00:46:20,079
know how much energy you have how many

1343
00:46:23,109 --> 00:46:21,760
of you you know and then we then sum it

1344
00:46:25,109 --> 00:46:23,119
up and we look at the entropy we

1345
00:46:27,190 --> 00:46:25,119
calculate their number and then we look

1346
00:46:28,550 --> 00:46:27,200
at the change so we look at after with

1347
00:46:30,230 --> 00:46:28,560
before and after and we look at the

1348
00:46:32,470 --> 00:46:30,240
difference there now the problem is with

1349
00:46:34,950 --> 00:46:32,480
respect to what are we labeling

1350
00:46:37,750 --> 00:46:34,960
and so what i'm saying is that chemi

1351
00:46:41,109 --> 00:46:37,760
that entropy as a term

1352
00:46:43,430 --> 00:46:41,119
is useful if you're a god looking down

1353
00:46:45,349 --> 00:46:43,440
on your universe and you see the system

1354
00:46:46,870 --> 00:46:45,359
and you see the surroundings

1355
00:46:48,470 --> 00:46:46,880
if you're doing that you're good i'm not

1356
00:46:51,910 --> 00:46:48,480
saying that all everyone using entropy

1357
00:46:54,069 --> 00:46:51,920
is insane i'm saying entropy relies on

1358
00:47:00,710 --> 00:46:54,079
coarse graining

1359
00:47:02,309 --> 00:47:00,720
so this is the problem because entropy

1360
00:47:03,670 --> 00:47:02,319
basically says everyone says there's no

1361
00:47:05,430 --> 00:47:03,680
causation in the universe we don't need

1362
00:47:06,230 --> 00:47:05,440
it there's a second law and i'm saying

1363
00:47:14,069 --> 00:47:06,240
no

1364
00:47:15,030 --> 00:47:14,079
you allow causation to exist

1365
00:47:16,309 --> 00:47:15,040
and then

1366
00:47:19,510 --> 00:47:16,319
and it removes the number of

1367
00:47:21,190 --> 00:47:19,520
uncertainties and my universe requires

1368
00:47:23,349 --> 00:47:21,200
no second law

1369
00:47:26,309 --> 00:47:23,359
no order at the beginning

1370
00:47:28,150 --> 00:47:26,319
it only requires causation and the

1371
00:47:29,589 --> 00:47:28,160
physical laws we already know so i

1372
00:47:31,510 --> 00:47:29,599
remember that it's critical let me let

1373
00:47:33,750 --> 00:47:31,520
me just you know because lee is a

1374
00:47:35,670 --> 00:47:33,760
delightful ability i wonder if he is

1375
00:47:37,589 --> 00:47:35,680
part part a member of the of the tribal

1376
00:47:40,470 --> 00:47:37,599
families because uh he talks with his

1377
00:47:42,710 --> 00:47:40,480
hands and and and he's just so brilliant

1378
00:47:44,630 --> 00:47:42,720
in his uh in his single-mindedness of

1379
00:47:46,309 --> 00:47:44,640
discourse but i have to put a pause so

1380
00:47:47,990 --> 00:47:46,319
lee is also pushing back on something

1381
00:47:50,630 --> 00:47:48,000
that's very controversial and he has

1382
00:47:52,790 --> 00:47:50,640
tremendous courage again kurt i know you

1383
00:47:54,710 --> 00:47:52,800
wanted to have blood on the floor of the

1384
00:47:56,069 --> 00:47:54,720
mat by round five i think we're probably

1385
00:47:57,990 --> 00:47:56,079
around three it's gonna get there we're

1386
00:48:00,309 --> 00:47:58,000
gonna get bloody but one bloody good

1387
00:48:02,309 --> 00:48:00,319
thing that that leah said exclusively

1388
00:48:04,710 --> 00:48:02,319
courageously i think only on my podcast

1389
00:48:07,589 --> 00:48:04,720
interview with him was that uh chemistry

1390
00:48:09,430 --> 00:48:07,599
has quote an intelligent design problem

1391
00:48:10,790 --> 00:48:09,440
so what and and lee takes on these

1392
00:48:12,150 --> 00:48:10,800
intelligent designers which i've had on

1393
00:48:13,990 --> 00:48:12,160
my show and and i don't mind and at

1394
00:48:16,150 --> 00:48:14,000
least debated them and it's it's kosher

1395
00:48:19,030 --> 00:48:16,160
in my mind to talk to such people steven

1396
00:48:21,589 --> 00:48:19,040
c meyer james two or others um but

1397
00:48:23,589 --> 00:48:21,599
fundamentally he has courage lee has

1398
00:48:26,309 --> 00:48:23,599
courage in that he is admitting there is

1399
00:48:27,750 --> 00:48:26,319
a lack a lacuna in our understanding of

1400
00:48:29,510 --> 00:48:27,760
signs which we are comfortable with

1401
00:48:31,270 --> 00:48:29,520
because we are making progress towards

1402
00:48:33,430 --> 00:48:31,280
an understanding that hopefully would

1403
00:48:35,430 --> 00:48:33,440
not involve god but hopefully if it does

1404
00:48:37,430 --> 00:48:35,440
involve god chemist physicists around

1405
00:48:39,270 --> 00:48:37,440
the world could be open-minded enough to

1406
00:48:40,950 --> 00:48:39,280
accept and change their priors based on

1407
00:48:42,390 --> 00:48:40,960
that now what he said

1408
00:48:44,230 --> 00:48:42,400
is is fundamentally important two

1409
00:48:45,990 --> 00:48:44,240
minutes ago he said he doesn't require a

1410
00:48:47,990 --> 00:48:46,000
second law now why is the second law so

1411
00:48:50,309 --> 00:48:48,000
problematic for chemists who reject the

1412
00:48:52,710 --> 00:48:50,319
intelligent design hypothesis which

1413
00:48:55,109 --> 00:48:52,720
which which obviously lee does and and

1414
00:48:56,630 --> 00:48:55,119
that is that because without some low

1415
00:48:58,630 --> 00:48:56,640
ordered state which can get into my

1416
00:49:00,549 --> 00:48:58,640
field of cosmology how did inflation had

1417
00:49:02,630 --> 00:49:00,559
the big bang unfurl if there was no

1418
00:49:04,390 --> 00:49:02,640
pre-existing universe a pre-existing

1419
00:49:06,309 --> 00:49:04,400
collapsing state perhaps

1420
00:49:08,470 --> 00:49:06,319
how do you establish a low entropy state

1421
00:49:10,950 --> 00:49:08,480
of the universe for it to grow to

1422
00:49:13,910 --> 00:49:10,960
today's facility of information of

1423
00:49:16,790 --> 00:49:13,920
complexity of chaos of entropy by 10 to

1424
00:49:19,030 --> 00:49:16,800
the 100 orders of magnitude that penrose

1425
00:49:21,030 --> 00:49:19,040
has pointed out in the 80s already this

1426
00:49:22,710 --> 00:49:21,040
is a huge challenge to cosmology how do

1427
00:49:24,069 --> 00:49:22,720
you get to high entropy today if you

1428
00:49:25,910 --> 00:49:24,079
didn't start with low entropy in the

1429
00:49:27,109 --> 00:49:25,920
beginning people like david albert and

1430
00:49:28,950 --> 00:49:27,119
others have postulated something called

1431
00:49:31,829 --> 00:49:28,960
the past hypothesis which is basically

1432
00:49:33,589 --> 00:49:31,839
by fiat some entity instantiates a zero

1433
00:49:35,829 --> 00:49:33,599
entropy or low entropy state i don't i

1434
00:49:38,069 --> 00:49:35,839
think that's kind of touching on almost

1435
00:49:40,390 --> 00:49:38,079
intelligent design-like features but

1436
00:49:42,870 --> 00:49:40,400
lee's self-consistent if not correct i'm

1437
00:49:44,470 --> 00:49:42,880
saying he is self-consistent if he can

1438
00:49:47,190 --> 00:49:44,480
avoid the second law's validity

1439
00:49:49,430 --> 00:49:47,200
uniformly universally then he precludes

1440
00:49:51,829 --> 00:49:49,440
and excludes a need for some designer

1441
00:49:54,549 --> 00:49:51,839
and i just wonder lee is that driven by

1442
00:49:57,109 --> 00:49:54,559
some desire to eliminate a godhead or is

1443
00:49:58,549 --> 00:49:57,119
this fundamentally just an element of a

1444
00:50:00,230 --> 00:49:58,559
self-consistent theory of the early

1445
00:50:02,950 --> 00:50:00,240
universe that leads to the chemistry

1446
00:50:03,829 --> 00:50:02,960
time facility that we just described

1447
00:50:05,430 --> 00:50:03,839
um

1448
00:50:07,270 --> 00:50:05,440
i mean i'm i was thinking about this

1449
00:50:09,190 --> 00:50:07,280
today actually because i was listening

1450
00:50:11,510 --> 00:50:09,200
um to something you were saying

1451
00:50:13,270 --> 00:50:11,520
and um no i've always really had an

1452
00:50:15,270 --> 00:50:13,280
intuition for

1453
00:50:17,030 --> 00:50:15,280
time that was different to everyone

1454
00:50:19,030 --> 00:50:17,040
else's and i remember my physics teacher

1455
00:50:20,710 --> 00:50:19,040
when i was at high school who used to

1456
00:50:22,549 --> 00:50:20,720
work at cern

1457
00:50:24,549 --> 00:50:22,559
and i was just i was saying this thing

1458
00:50:26,870 --> 00:50:24,559
called time and she said you understand

1459
00:50:29,589 --> 00:50:26,880
time is nothing it's just the ability to

1460
00:50:31,750 --> 00:50:29,599
watch interactive things to happen it is

1461
00:50:33,589 --> 00:50:31,760
if you have to distribute energy

1462
00:50:34,390 --> 00:50:33,599
you have time and i was just like let's

1463
00:50:40,470 --> 00:50:34,400
just

1464
00:50:41,349 --> 00:50:40,480
kind of ignored it

1465
00:50:45,910 --> 00:50:41,359
and

1466
00:50:47,510 --> 00:50:45,920
open-minded chemist in the um

1467
00:50:49,990 --> 00:50:47,520
for me chemistry is a way of interacting

1468
00:50:52,549 --> 00:50:50,000
the universe to ask questions and when i

1469
00:50:54,549 --> 00:50:52,559
look around and i can see that you have

1470
00:50:55,990 --> 00:50:54,559
sand on a beach that is inorganic made

1471
00:50:57,270 --> 00:50:56,000
of silicates there might be biological

1472
00:50:59,030 --> 00:50:57,280
stuff in there but you've got inorganic

1473
00:51:00,630 --> 00:50:59,040
stuff and then you can see a blade of

1474
00:51:02,309 --> 00:51:00,640
grass where there's a molecular machine

1475
00:51:05,109 --> 00:51:02,319
in there that's assembling

1476
00:51:06,549 --> 00:51:05,119
taking light taking co2 and respiring

1477
00:51:08,470 --> 00:51:06,559
you can't help thinking

1478
00:51:10,710 --> 00:51:08,480
there must be some incredible force of

1479
00:51:12,390 --> 00:51:10,720
nature that we're misunderstanding now i

1480
00:51:13,990 --> 00:51:12,400
don't mean like a force of gravity but i

1481
00:51:16,630 --> 00:51:14,000
will introduce and this is what assembly

1482
00:51:17,910 --> 00:51:16,640
theory quantifies the court that the

1483
00:51:19,750 --> 00:51:17,920
physicists should give us a bit of

1484
00:51:21,750 --> 00:51:19,760
causation the physicists have taken

1485
00:51:23,510 --> 00:51:21,760
causation out of everything in physics

1486
00:51:25,510 --> 00:51:23,520
so they have to magically invoke it

1487
00:51:26,790 --> 00:51:25,520
which is kind of why we have this free

1488
00:51:28,790 --> 00:51:26,800
will problem now because we've got

1489
00:51:29,829 --> 00:51:28,800
really smart people saying i don't have

1490
00:51:31,430 --> 00:51:29,839
free will because i live in a

1491
00:51:32,630 --> 00:51:31,440
deterministic universe and then you're

1492
00:51:34,390 --> 00:51:32,640
just like well what are we doing this

1493
00:51:35,910 --> 00:51:34,400
then i might as well just run round

1494
00:51:37,589 --> 00:51:35,920
naked on the youtube channel because

1495
00:51:38,870 --> 00:51:37,599
it's already nobody acts like they have

1496
00:51:40,950 --> 00:51:38,880
no free will i mean that's the thing

1497
00:51:42,309 --> 00:51:40,960
it's like if you meet somebody who truly

1498
00:51:44,150 --> 00:51:42,319
believes that they have no free will and

1499
00:51:46,150 --> 00:51:44,160
acts upon it that person's should be

1500
00:51:47,829 --> 00:51:46,160
referred to i think

1501
00:51:49,910 --> 00:51:47,839
doesn't sam harris claim but anyway i'm

1502
00:51:52,230 --> 00:51:49,920
digressing a bit so what i mean is that

1503
00:51:54,870 --> 00:51:52,240
um you have this thing that

1504
00:51:57,270 --> 00:51:54,880
that for me the missing force if you

1505
00:52:00,230 --> 00:51:57,280
like or the missing phenomena that we

1506
00:52:01,510 --> 00:52:00,240
are all missing by removing it by having

1507
00:52:03,030 --> 00:52:01,520
entropy

1508
00:52:04,470 --> 00:52:03,040
cheat number one

1509
00:52:06,870 --> 00:52:04,480
having order at the beginning of the

1510
00:52:09,030 --> 00:52:06,880
universe cheat number two and having

1511
00:52:10,710 --> 00:52:09,040
emergent time and emergent causation

1512
00:52:13,109 --> 00:52:10,720
cheats three and four

1513
00:52:14,069 --> 00:52:13,119
is that we're me we're ignoring the fact

1514
00:52:16,150 --> 00:52:14,079
that

1515
00:52:19,910 --> 00:52:16,160
when you've got a universe just full of

1516
00:52:22,069 --> 00:52:19,920
objects let's call them just atoms right

1517
00:52:23,589 --> 00:52:22,079
and some energy and you start to break

1518
00:52:28,790 --> 00:52:23,599
symmetry

1519
00:52:30,549 --> 00:52:28,800
and there's this thing called selection

1520
00:52:32,309 --> 00:52:30,559
and you don't need biology for selection

1521
00:52:34,549 --> 00:52:32,319
you don't need i don't worry there's no

1522
00:52:36,549 --> 00:52:34,559
pan psychism here there is just

1523
00:52:38,549 --> 00:52:36,559
the environment can

1524
00:52:41,190 --> 00:52:38,559
start to be the shepherd

1525
00:52:42,950 --> 00:52:41,200
for the sheep if you like and then the

1526
00:52:44,630 --> 00:52:42,960
sheep can become the shepherd and they

1527
00:52:47,750 --> 00:52:44,640
switch between the two and you get

1528
00:52:48,470 --> 00:52:47,760
complex behavior frozen in now this is

1529
00:52:51,510 --> 00:52:48,480
the

1530
00:52:52,549 --> 00:52:51,520
point that random events are random but

1531
00:52:55,030 --> 00:52:52,559
they are

1532
00:52:56,309 --> 00:52:55,040
absolutely monumental in the trajectory

1533
00:52:58,870 --> 00:52:56,319
so what i mean is you go to a billiard

1534
00:53:00,390 --> 00:52:58,880
table and you just start moving the

1535
00:53:03,030 --> 00:53:00,400
balls around

1536
00:53:05,510 --> 00:53:03,040
the state that you'll have a number of

1537
00:53:07,190 --> 00:53:05,520
bounces later will become precisely

1538
00:53:08,790 --> 00:53:07,200
controlled by your initial conditions

1539
00:53:09,990 --> 00:53:08,800
and some variations

1540
00:53:11,109 --> 00:53:10,000
start with different initial conditions

1541
00:53:13,670 --> 00:53:11,119
put different energy you'll get to a

1542
00:53:15,589 --> 00:53:13,680
different place now imagine that the

1543
00:53:17,510 --> 00:53:15,599
system is able to record that memory of

1544
00:53:19,990 --> 00:53:17,520
what happened before

1545
00:53:21,750 --> 00:53:20,000
that basically physics turns into

1546
00:53:24,230 --> 00:53:21,760
chemical chemistry through bond

1547
00:53:26,950 --> 00:53:24,240
formation and complex conventory

1548
00:53:29,430 --> 00:53:26,960
explosion and then that process is then

1549
00:53:31,510 --> 00:53:29,440
harnessed when biology is invented by

1550
00:53:33,349 --> 00:53:31,520
matter and you have you're able to

1551
00:53:36,150 --> 00:53:33,359
remember what happened to you at higher

1552
00:53:38,950 --> 00:53:36,160
higher dimensionality and that

1553
00:53:41,990 --> 00:53:38,960
is what that causation from

1554
00:53:43,990 --> 00:53:42,000
quarks to quacks

1555
00:53:46,309 --> 00:53:44,000
right we can have a quote on that we

1556
00:53:48,309 --> 00:53:46,319
call it from rocks to rachmaninoff yeah

1557
00:53:50,069 --> 00:53:48,319
yeah that's a much better you're much

1558
00:53:53,270 --> 00:53:50,079
better at this than i am brian but you

1559
00:53:55,910 --> 00:53:53,280
you go from this kind of non-causal

1560
00:53:57,910 --> 00:53:55,920
system to a causal system then act on

1561
00:53:59,589 --> 00:53:57,920
itself so there's two levels you get to

1562
00:54:01,349 --> 00:53:59,599
biology and you get causation trapped in

1563
00:54:03,109 --> 00:54:01,359
evolution but then when evolution

1564
00:54:05,430 --> 00:54:03,119
produces objects that can act on

1565
00:54:07,030 --> 00:54:05,440
themselves we can genetically engineer

1566
00:54:08,950 --> 00:54:07,040
ourselves we can play with the climate

1567
00:54:11,750 --> 00:54:08,960
we can play with the soil we can play

1568
00:54:14,309 --> 00:54:11,760
with technology you get this explosion

1569
00:54:16,230 --> 00:54:14,319
of further complexity and that's how it

1570
00:54:19,990 --> 00:54:16,240
works and i think that the universe is

1571
00:54:21,670 --> 00:54:20,000
literally teeming with um these engines

1572
00:54:23,430 --> 00:54:21,680
of causation

1573
00:54:25,109 --> 00:54:23,440
and it doesn't need to be we could come

1574
00:54:28,309 --> 00:54:25,119
to a drake occasion like god you like

1575
00:54:31,190 --> 00:54:28,319
earth you know the fact is there's life

1576
00:54:33,750 --> 00:54:31,200
everywhere the sad thing is we probably

1577
00:54:35,670 --> 00:54:33,760
won't be able to recognize it other than

1578
00:54:37,990 --> 00:54:35,680
if we use assembly theory but that's

1579
00:54:39,990 --> 00:54:38,000
obviously my bias right and the prop the

1580
00:54:41,270 --> 00:54:40,000
problem i have as a theorist here is i

1581
00:54:43,430 --> 00:54:41,280
invented a theory and several

1582
00:54:45,589 --> 00:54:43,440
experiments and what my challenge is to

1583
00:54:46,390 --> 00:54:45,599
disprove my own theory

1584
00:54:50,069 --> 00:54:46,400
with

1585
00:54:51,430 --> 00:54:50,079
i'm in is the chemist won't even engage

1586
00:54:53,510 --> 00:54:51,440
with it to start with and it's taken

1587
00:54:56,470 --> 00:54:53,520
them a very long time i have a different

1588
00:54:58,549 --> 00:54:56,480
i'm sorry kurt to interrupt go ahead

1589
00:54:59,990 --> 00:54:58,559
it's better if i don't say anything okay

1590
00:55:02,150 --> 00:55:00,000
it means it's going well

1591
00:55:02,950 --> 00:55:02,160
okay although i do have a quick question

1592
00:55:05,030 --> 00:55:02,960
yeah

1593
00:55:06,790 --> 00:55:05,040
as for lee and for you brian what's the

1594
00:55:09,670 --> 00:55:06,800
definition of order that doesn't involve

1595
00:55:11,910 --> 00:55:11,109
because if you're saying low entropy is

1596
00:55:13,589 --> 00:55:11,920
order

1597
00:55:15,589 --> 00:55:13,599
well then that sounds like a definition

1598
00:55:17,910 --> 00:55:15,599
of order yet the word order was used

1599
00:55:19,670 --> 00:55:17,920
prior to the word entropy being invented

1600
00:55:21,990 --> 00:55:19,680
so this is really tough so you've asked

1601
00:55:23,910 --> 00:55:22,000
a really smart so i'll take a stab at it

1602
00:55:26,790 --> 00:55:23,920
and brian will as well you can define

1603
00:55:28,309 --> 00:55:26,800
information in terms of your certainty

1604
00:55:30,870 --> 00:55:28,319
about what's going to happen next i take

1605
00:55:33,430 --> 00:55:30,880
a coin right and i say i'm going to flip

1606
00:55:35,670 --> 00:55:33,440
my coin and i have no idea i have no

1607
00:55:37,829 --> 00:55:35,680
prior i have no nothing to suggest that

1608
00:55:39,910 --> 00:55:37,839
it's a weighted coin i will assign a

1609
00:55:41,750 --> 00:55:39,920
prior that i'm going to give you know 50

1610
00:55:42,950 --> 00:55:41,760
head or sales and i'll collect data and

1611
00:55:45,030 --> 00:55:42,960
i'll update

1612
00:55:47,829 --> 00:55:45,040
when you're that so that update

1613
00:55:49,349 --> 00:55:47,839
constitutes some information when you're

1614
00:55:51,109 --> 00:55:49,359
and that is the same type of thing you

1615
00:55:53,030 --> 00:55:51,119
want to have a look at an order order is

1616
00:55:55,829 --> 00:55:53,040
a really odd thing because order is

1617
00:55:56,950 --> 00:55:55,839
about registry and so i would say that

1618
00:55:58,390 --> 00:55:56,960
order

1619
00:56:01,430 --> 00:55:58,400
happens

1620
00:56:03,430 --> 00:56:01,440
when you have no constraints let's say

1621
00:56:04,950 --> 00:56:03,440
oh and you allow things to cool down so

1622
00:56:07,030 --> 00:56:04,960
let's just take a phase transition you

1623
00:56:09,510 --> 00:56:07,040
take some water vapor and you know that

1624
00:56:10,630 --> 00:56:09,520
water vapor to kind of um precipitate

1625
00:56:12,309 --> 00:56:10,640
and grow a

1626
00:56:13,829 --> 00:56:12,319
an ice crystal

1627
00:56:15,270 --> 00:56:13,839
okay and if you allow that to happen

1628
00:56:17,349 --> 00:56:15,280
very slowly

1629
00:56:19,430 --> 00:56:17,359
the the order

1630
00:56:21,510 --> 00:56:19,440
will arise from the fact that molecules

1631
00:56:24,069 --> 00:56:21,520
in that ice crystal the water molecules

1632
00:56:27,109 --> 00:56:24,079
will take the correct low energy

1633
00:56:29,349 --> 00:56:27,119
configuration to make a nice tetrahedral

1634
00:56:31,109 --> 00:56:29,359
symmetry and then you'll get no defects

1635
00:56:33,190 --> 00:56:31,119
in there and you'll produce this perfect

1636
00:56:36,470 --> 00:56:33,200
object that just happens because the

1637
00:56:38,710 --> 00:56:36,480
laws of physics give you that so order

1638
00:56:41,190 --> 00:56:38,720
arises when you have no or the

1639
00:56:44,069 --> 00:56:41,200
constraints are minimal

1640
00:56:45,430 --> 00:56:44,079
that's kind of a really nice definition

1641
00:56:47,670 --> 00:56:45,440
of order

1642
00:56:49,190 --> 00:56:47,680
um and it's hard because lots of people

1643
00:56:51,349 --> 00:56:49,200
argue and they bring in it's all

1644
00:56:53,349 --> 00:56:51,359
anthropologic you know

1645
00:56:56,150 --> 00:56:53,359
my kid's bedroom is not ordered he will

1646
00:56:57,750 --> 00:56:56,160
claim it is right but you know so that's

1647
00:56:59,430 --> 00:56:57,760
and then you then frame in these

1648
00:57:02,069 --> 00:56:59,440
entropic and information arguments but

1649
00:57:04,470 --> 00:57:02,079
you say hey what is information

1650
00:57:06,950 --> 00:57:04,480
information is about uncertainty what is

1651
00:57:09,589 --> 00:57:06,960
entropy entropy is about disorder so one

1652
00:57:11,589 --> 00:57:09,599
way of looking at is

1653
00:57:13,910 --> 00:57:11,599
causation or information for me is

1654
00:57:15,270 --> 00:57:13,920
almost the inverse of entropy so when i

1655
00:57:17,750 --> 00:57:15,280
burn something

1656
00:57:19,750 --> 00:57:17,760
i know how much entropy has changed so

1657
00:57:21,990 --> 00:57:19,760
if i burn a book

1658
00:57:24,789 --> 00:57:22,000
i in principle or i take a book to the

1659
00:57:26,309 --> 00:57:24,799
event hierarchy and black hole right

1660
00:57:27,990 --> 00:57:26,319
you're going to get all the information

1661
00:57:29,829 --> 00:57:28,000
back out talking radiation i won't be

1662
00:57:31,910 --> 00:57:29,839
able to count it but i should be able to

1663
00:57:33,829 --> 00:57:31,920
work out what it's roughly going to be

1664
00:57:35,349 --> 00:57:33,839
so it tells you what i've lost it's

1665
00:57:37,510 --> 00:57:35,359
never told me what i have and that's why

1666
00:57:39,910 --> 00:57:37,520
i'm pushing so hard on this is entropy

1667
00:57:41,990 --> 00:57:39,920
is almost like the inverse it tells me

1668
00:57:44,309 --> 00:57:42,000
that i lost stuff it can never tell me

1669
00:57:45,109 --> 00:57:44,319
what i had

1670
00:57:46,390 --> 00:57:45,119
yeah i

1671
00:57:48,549 --> 00:57:46,400
very much agree with that i would only

1672
00:57:50,390 --> 00:57:48,559
add on just another example think of a

1673
00:57:52,069 --> 00:57:50,400
pendulum clock a grandfather clock with

1674
00:57:53,589 --> 00:57:52,079
a pendulum swinging back and forth in

1675
00:57:57,109 --> 00:57:53,599
vacuum

1676
00:57:58,710 --> 00:57:57,119
you can use that to tell time um and

1677
00:58:00,549 --> 00:57:58,720
actually i think it's the minimal clock

1678
00:58:02,789 --> 00:58:00,559
of lee works a lot on minimal systems

1679
00:58:05,510 --> 00:58:02,799
and and systems that exhibit uh you know

1680
00:58:07,349 --> 00:58:05,520
features of the very most simple basics

1681
00:58:09,190 --> 00:58:07,359
and essence of the phenomena not simple

1682
00:58:11,430 --> 00:58:09,200
in terms of like dumb but but simple in

1683
00:58:12,710 --> 00:58:11,440
terms of elementary and important um so

1684
00:58:14,549 --> 00:58:12,720
you can have this clock swing back and

1685
00:58:16,630 --> 00:58:14,559
forth and you can use it to tell time

1686
00:58:18,630 --> 00:58:16,640
i.e this you know describe order but if

1687
00:58:20,549 --> 00:58:18,640
and only if you you define the direction

1688
00:58:22,950 --> 00:58:20,559
of the arrow of time right because a

1689
00:58:24,309 --> 00:58:22,960
pendulum is timed translation symmetric

1690
00:58:26,150 --> 00:58:24,319
if i didn't tell you where it started i

1691
00:58:28,470 --> 00:58:26,160
swung the plum bomb out over here and

1692
00:58:31,030 --> 00:58:28,480
let it go you wouldn't know uh the

1693
00:58:33,109 --> 00:58:31,040
absolute origin of time but uh but you

1694
00:58:34,710 --> 00:58:33,119
could still count time in a parametric

1695
00:58:36,630 --> 00:58:34,720
relative way you could say so many

1696
00:58:38,549 --> 00:58:36,640
cycles of the pendulum later and you

1697
00:58:40,390 --> 00:58:38,559
could say that's in the forward but if

1698
00:58:42,390 --> 00:58:40,400
the universe were you know arranged

1699
00:58:44,390 --> 00:58:42,400
differently the laws of physics work for

1700
00:58:46,870 --> 00:58:44,400
newtonian physics in the absence of heat

1701
00:58:48,950 --> 00:58:46,880
and so forth work uh the other way so

1702
00:58:51,030 --> 00:58:48,960
yes so lee's right you imply some

1703
00:58:53,030 --> 00:58:51,040
constraint and then you can do stuff

1704
00:58:55,270 --> 00:58:53,040
without imposing uh this interplay

1705
00:58:56,950 --> 00:58:55,280
between entropy time and order but only

1706
00:58:58,789 --> 00:58:56,960
if you supply at least the minimum bit

1707
00:59:01,670 --> 00:58:58,799
of information i.e what was the initial

1708
00:59:03,109 --> 00:59:01,680
condition but to get back to lee's

1709
00:59:04,630 --> 00:59:03,119
point i think this will go back to our

1710
00:59:06,470 --> 00:59:04,640
rubric that we established in the ground

1711
00:59:08,230 --> 00:59:06,480
rules you know when lee and i were nose

1712
00:59:10,230 --> 00:59:08,240
to nose at the beginning and and kurt

1713
00:59:11,270 --> 00:59:10,240
was like pushing us and we were like

1714
00:59:12,549 --> 00:59:11,280
you know at the very beginning of the

1715
00:59:14,390 --> 00:59:12,559
fight um

1716
00:59:16,950 --> 00:59:14,400
you know we we should have some

1717
00:59:19,190 --> 00:59:16,960
explanation of of what our priors are

1718
00:59:21,589 --> 00:59:19,200
and how we could change our our minds uh

1719
00:59:24,069 --> 00:59:21,599
so one thing that leah said just now and

1720
00:59:26,150 --> 00:59:24,079
said to me on my podcast and has said uh

1721
00:59:27,750 --> 00:59:26,160
in in many of his wonderful debates and

1722
00:59:29,430 --> 00:59:27,760
again i give him credit for his courage

1723
00:59:32,069 --> 00:59:29,440
this is so rare that you have a

1724
00:59:34,230 --> 00:59:32,079
publix-facing um scientists at the

1725
00:59:35,910 --> 00:59:34,240
highest level regious professor at the

1726
00:59:37,910 --> 00:59:35,920
uk which is like appointed by the queen

1727
00:59:39,190 --> 00:59:37,920
so i think he has to like taste test all

1728
00:59:41,109 --> 00:59:39,200
her food to make sure she doesn't die

1729
00:59:43,750 --> 00:59:41,119
like martin reese he tells the queen her

1730
00:59:45,990 --> 00:59:43,760
horoscope as the royal astronomer lee is

1731
00:59:47,190 --> 00:59:46,000
like that level in in in in his

1732
00:59:48,950 --> 00:59:47,200
profession so

1733
00:59:51,670 --> 00:59:48,960
let me say that again prefacing with

1734
00:59:53,750 --> 00:59:51,680
respect um lee is basically claimed that

1735
00:59:55,589 --> 00:59:53,760
life is abundant

1736
00:59:57,430 --> 00:59:55,599
and so to me in the universe and and

1737
00:59:59,829 --> 00:59:57,440
he's gone so far as to make a life

1738
01:00:01,349 --> 00:59:59,839
detection machine which after his

1739
01:00:04,390 --> 01:00:01,359
twitter bot you know in the warm

1740
01:00:06,069 --> 01:00:04,400
darwinian pool registers you know um you

1741
01:00:07,910 --> 01:00:06,079
know i'm setting up my twitter like jack

1742
01:00:09,510 --> 01:00:07,920
did you know 20 years ago

1743
01:00:11,109 --> 01:00:09,520
after that he's going to also you know

1744
01:00:13,589 --> 01:00:11,119
provide the signal coming in from the

1745
01:00:15,750 --> 01:00:13,599
universe autonomously generated based on

1746
01:00:17,430 --> 01:00:15,760
fundamental mathematical principles

1747
01:00:18,950 --> 01:00:17,440
connected to computational devices

1748
01:00:21,829 --> 01:00:18,960
turing machines

1749
01:00:24,789 --> 01:00:21,839
but that is predicated on this bias i

1750
01:00:27,030 --> 01:00:24,799
call you out i use the b word lee

1751
01:00:28,870 --> 01:00:27,040
you are biased that there is a life is

1752
01:00:30,150 --> 01:00:28,880
plentiful throughout the universe and i

1753
01:00:31,910 --> 01:00:30,160
have to say

1754
01:00:33,430 --> 01:00:31,920
you know with the drake equation which

1755
01:00:35,910 --> 01:00:33,440
we can write down and i give it to my

1756
01:00:37,589 --> 01:00:35,920
undergraduate students and and lee knows

1757
01:00:39,270 --> 01:00:37,599
it backwards and forwards the most

1758
01:00:40,950 --> 01:00:39,280
important thing in any equation lee

1759
01:00:42,390 --> 01:00:40,960
correct me if i'm wrong is not that you

1760
01:00:43,990 --> 01:00:42,400
get the answer

1761
01:00:45,910 --> 01:00:44,000
it's how you account for your

1762
01:00:47,030 --> 01:00:45,920
uncertainties your statistical

1763
01:00:48,069 --> 01:00:47,040
uncertainties which are easy to

1764
01:00:49,990 --> 01:00:48,079
calculate

1765
01:00:51,430 --> 01:00:50,000
and your systematic uncertainties which

1766
01:00:53,670 --> 01:00:51,440
are very very difficult i use this

1767
01:00:55,270 --> 01:00:53,680
example in a talk i gave in the belly of

1768
01:00:57,510 --> 01:00:55,280
the beast guys i went to the seti

1769
01:00:59,270 --> 01:00:57,520
institute which we can talk about later

1770
01:01:01,349 --> 01:00:59,280
i gave a talk and said what if you apply

1771
01:01:02,470 --> 01:01:01,359
the drake equation to the san diego zoo

1772
01:01:03,589 --> 01:01:02,480
where i am

1773
01:01:05,510 --> 01:01:03,599
and he said how many people are in the

1774
01:01:07,109 --> 01:01:05,520
san diego zoo right now and i go through

1775
01:01:08,710 --> 01:01:07,119
the calculation i come out with a number

1776
01:01:10,710 --> 01:01:08,720
and it's like eight thousand

1777
01:01:12,710 --> 01:01:10,720
um and that's great except when i do the

1778
01:01:13,910 --> 01:01:12,720
error bars if i account for each one of

1779
01:01:16,150 --> 01:01:13,920
the terms that goes into the drake

1780
01:01:18,710 --> 01:01:16,160
equation for the san diego zoo and feel

1781
01:01:20,789 --> 01:01:18,720
free to estimate example of a fermi type

1782
01:01:23,109 --> 01:01:20,799
problem if you don't include the error

1783
01:01:25,109 --> 01:01:23,119
bars it's meaningless it's worthless so

1784
01:01:26,950 --> 01:01:25,119
i believe that league should say that

1785
01:01:28,789 --> 01:01:26,960
there's 100 you know that life is

1786
01:01:30,630 --> 01:01:28,799
abundant but i would i want to know his

1787
01:01:32,630 --> 01:01:30,640
error bars and i want to know how can he

1788
01:01:34,230 --> 01:01:32,640
go about reducing those error bars in

1789
01:01:35,910 --> 01:01:34,240
other words disproving himself rather

1790
01:01:37,910 --> 01:01:35,920
than confirming that life is abundant

1791
01:01:40,390 --> 01:01:37,920
necessarily what are the potential

1792
01:01:43,030 --> 01:01:40,400
pitfalls traps biases confirmation and

1793
01:01:44,789 --> 01:01:43,040
otherwise that this abundance detector

1794
01:01:47,670 --> 01:01:44,799
that you have that you have developed

1795
01:01:49,670 --> 01:01:47,680
and promoted um has any degree of

1796
01:01:51,430 --> 01:01:49,680
credulity right now that there's a

1797
01:01:53,510 --> 01:01:51,440
hundred percent as you said there's 100

1798
01:01:55,589 --> 01:01:53,520
chance i'm closer to zero percent chance

1799
01:01:56,870 --> 01:01:55,599
of life in the universe again no one

1800
01:01:58,710 --> 01:01:56,880
would like to believe it more than me

1801
01:02:00,390 --> 01:01:58,720
especially intelligent aliens that could

1802
01:02:02,390 --> 01:02:00,400
teach us the laws of physics at the 25th

1803
01:02:04,309 --> 01:02:02,400
century right now so i can win that

1804
01:02:06,950 --> 01:02:04,319
nobel prize finally but but i want to

1805
01:02:08,309 --> 01:02:06,960
know lee i'm with

1806
01:02:09,750 --> 01:02:08,319
let me unpack this let me qualify

1807
01:02:12,950 --> 01:02:09,760
because i think i mean we're violently

1808
01:02:15,030 --> 01:02:12,960
agreeing so um my intuition the way i

1809
01:02:16,230 --> 01:02:15,040
understand how chemistry works is i

1810
01:02:17,990 --> 01:02:16,240
think there's life everywhere i didn't

1811
01:02:19,990 --> 01:02:18,000
quite say a hundred percent brian is

1812
01:02:21,670 --> 01:02:20,000
kind of i have you on record saying a

1813
01:02:23,190 --> 01:02:21,680
hundred percent i know that's fine it's

1814
01:02:24,549 --> 01:02:23,200
fine i'm happy to stand by i think it's

1815
01:02:26,309 --> 01:02:24,559
great it's like you're

1816
01:02:28,069 --> 01:02:26,319
you're really putting me there and you

1817
01:02:29,910 --> 01:02:28,079
know going me in the corner and just

1818
01:02:31,270 --> 01:02:29,920
throwing the punches and i would say

1819
01:02:34,870 --> 01:02:31,280
that um

1820
01:02:36,390 --> 01:02:34,880
it it is i i i i wouldn't say i'm biased

1821
01:02:38,150 --> 01:02:36,400
i'm optimistic

1822
01:02:39,510 --> 01:02:38,160
but if you were to say league how much

1823
01:02:42,390 --> 01:02:39,520
evidence do you have for life elsewhere

1824
01:02:43,990 --> 01:02:42,400
in the universe other nerf zero i have

1825
01:02:45,670 --> 01:02:44,000
zero evidence

1826
01:02:47,190 --> 01:02:45,680
but i would you know i could kind of say

1827
01:02:49,430 --> 01:02:47,200
it brian you know

1828
01:02:51,430 --> 01:02:49,440
hey brian let's let's set fire to

1829
01:02:53,750 --> 01:02:51,440
something right like i don't know some

1830
01:02:55,430 --> 01:02:53,760
carbon how much evidence do you have for

1831
01:02:57,190 --> 01:02:55,440
carbon being on fire in oxygen in the

1832
01:02:58,470 --> 01:02:57,200
universe you might

1833
01:03:01,349 --> 01:02:58,480
probably wouldn't

1834
01:03:03,030 --> 01:03:01,359
knows what happens on earth and knows

1835
01:03:04,230 --> 01:03:03,040
how simple it is and and you could

1836
01:03:05,829 --> 01:03:04,240
probably go yeah i could probably

1837
01:03:06,950 --> 01:03:05,839
imagine some carbon being on fire

1838
01:03:08,710 --> 01:03:06,960
somewhere

1839
01:03:10,630 --> 01:03:08,720
kelvin used to think the sun was powered

1840
01:03:12,630 --> 01:03:10,640
with coal right but when he did the math

1841
01:03:14,630 --> 01:03:12,640
he just worked out and have an energy so

1842
01:03:16,870 --> 01:03:14,640
totally i have no evidence there's life

1843
01:03:18,390 --> 01:03:16,880
elsewhere in the universe zero there's

1844
01:03:20,150 --> 01:03:18,400
some hints there might have been life on

1845
01:03:22,069 --> 01:03:20,160
mars there's some hints that there might

1846
01:03:23,829 --> 01:03:22,079
be some interesting stuff on venus we're

1847
01:03:25,910 --> 01:03:23,839
excited about going to europa and

1848
01:03:28,630 --> 01:03:25,920
enceladus right so i had just to be

1849
01:03:30,789 --> 01:03:28,640
clear for everyone listening zero i have

1850
01:03:33,910 --> 01:03:30,799
zero evidence does that mean that i'm

1851
01:03:36,950 --> 01:03:33,920
somehow life religious no no no no what

1852
01:03:38,230 --> 01:03:36,960
i'm saying is chemistry is so easy

1853
01:03:40,870 --> 01:03:38,240
so quick

1854
01:03:42,950 --> 01:03:40,880
and we there are so many missing gaps

1855
01:03:45,190 --> 01:03:42,960
what is the likelihood here is the

1856
01:03:47,349 --> 01:03:45,200
likelihood that life is just vanishing

1857
01:03:50,710 --> 01:03:47,359
at hard or is it that we don't actually

1858
01:03:52,710 --> 01:03:50,720
know what how how we store information

1859
01:03:55,270 --> 01:03:52,720
in chemical systems when an evolution

1860
01:03:56,549 --> 01:03:55,280
works because i i do agree

1861
01:03:57,829 --> 01:03:56,559
that um

1862
01:03:59,589 --> 01:03:57,839
there's probably life in the universe

1863
01:04:02,230 --> 01:03:59,599
because life is we're using life is a

1864
01:04:05,270 --> 01:04:02,240
very i'm using life as a very broad

1865
01:04:07,670 --> 01:04:05,280
casual term for the following and i'm

1866
01:04:09,270 --> 01:04:07,680
saying that when there is selection

1867
01:04:11,430 --> 01:04:09,280
there will eventually be some kind of

1868
01:04:14,230 --> 01:04:11,440
evolution and that

1869
01:04:16,630 --> 01:04:14,240
will normally get give rise at some

1870
01:04:18,309 --> 01:04:16,640
point in time to a luca and that luca

1871
01:04:20,309 --> 01:04:18,319
will go on and brian is absolutely right

1872
01:04:21,990 --> 01:04:20,319
there's lots of fragile links in there

1873
01:04:23,829 --> 01:04:22,000
and we just don't know the point about

1874
01:04:25,990 --> 01:04:23,839
the drake equation however is this the

1875
01:04:27,910 --> 01:04:26,000
drake equation is not a law it's not

1876
01:04:30,069 --> 01:04:27,920
really a equation it's a kind of made-up

1877
01:04:31,670 --> 01:04:30,079
thing

1878
01:04:33,349 --> 01:04:31,680
but i do think that brian and i should

1879
01:04:36,309 --> 01:04:33,359
sit down say okay

1880
01:04:39,349 --> 01:04:36,319
how many stars how many planets

1881
01:04:42,230 --> 01:04:39,359
what fraction of the planets are even

1882
01:04:44,069 --> 01:04:42,240
you know my motto here is let's allow

1883
01:04:47,109 --> 01:04:44,079
any planet where bonds are allowed

1884
01:04:48,950 --> 01:04:47,119
covalent bonds because covalent bonds

1885
01:04:50,950 --> 01:04:48,960
that let's just let's allow life on or

1886
01:04:52,390 --> 01:04:50,960
let's allow all those to be lifeline so

1887
01:04:55,190 --> 01:04:52,400
then you know i say where there's bond

1888
01:04:57,190 --> 01:04:55,200
there's hope so that's important because

1889
01:04:58,789 --> 01:04:57,200
as kurt always points out you know you

1890
01:05:00,470 --> 01:04:58,799
want to have these no-go theorems right

1891
01:05:01,589 --> 01:05:00,480
cur this is something that's a fixture

1892
01:05:03,750 --> 01:05:01,599
on your channel you've been paying

1893
01:05:05,670 --> 01:05:03,760
attention brian yeah and i'm stipulating

1894
01:05:08,390 --> 01:05:05,680
to you lee i'm willing to change my mind

1895
01:05:09,750 --> 01:05:08,400
that there is no no-go theorem um you

1896
01:05:11,430 --> 01:05:09,760
know so in other words the probability

1897
01:05:13,190 --> 01:05:11,440
is greater than zero and i should never

1898
01:05:15,270 --> 01:05:13,200
say zero and i didn't say zero i said i

1899
01:05:17,430 --> 01:05:15,280
think it's closer to zero but uh but i

1900
01:05:19,670 --> 01:05:17,440
agree with you bonds the proclivity of

1901
01:05:21,990 --> 01:05:19,680
bonds and the vicinity of carbon to make

1902
01:05:23,430 --> 01:05:22,000
bonds and so forth um i i would say

1903
01:05:24,870 --> 01:05:23,440
there's lots of evidence of chemical

1904
01:05:27,270 --> 01:05:24,880
reaction i mean we have examples of

1905
01:05:28,870 --> 01:05:27,280
amino acids at high redshift you know

1906
01:05:30,150 --> 01:05:28,880
that we can detect uh and quasar

1907
01:05:32,150 --> 01:05:30,160
absorption features and we know

1908
01:05:34,470 --> 01:05:32,160
chemistry takes place in in distant

1909
01:05:36,470 --> 01:05:34,480
objects but but you know this main point

1910
01:05:38,950 --> 01:05:36,480
is well taken yeah and as i and i

1911
01:05:40,390 --> 01:05:38,960
continue to push back and say you know

1912
01:05:43,270 --> 01:05:40,400
i mean

1913
01:05:45,510 --> 01:05:43,280
my my my conviction is my out of my kind

1914
01:05:47,750 --> 01:05:45,520
of my humbleness really because

1915
01:05:49,750 --> 01:05:47,760
the earth isn't that special it's a rock

1916
01:05:51,990 --> 01:05:49,760
the solar system we've got some carbon

1917
01:05:53,670 --> 01:05:52,000
we've got some oxygen yeah people say oh

1918
01:05:55,750 --> 01:05:53,680
it's lucky that we had to clean up the

1919
01:05:57,670 --> 01:05:55,760
jupiter could clean up everything for us

1920
01:05:59,349 --> 01:05:57,680
and all this ah i don't know we don't

1921
01:06:01,190 --> 01:05:59,359
know what time life emerged on earth in

1922
01:06:03,430 --> 01:06:01,200
100 million years it might be lucky for

1923
01:06:05,750 --> 01:06:03,440
us that we have intelligent life and i'm

1924
01:06:07,910 --> 01:06:05,760
very happy to say it to you know i say

1925
01:06:10,069 --> 01:06:07,920
to ufo believers all the time

1926
01:06:12,309 --> 01:06:10,079
the chances that an intelligent life

1927
01:06:14,390 --> 01:06:12,319
form has sent ufo to earth is like i

1928
01:06:16,309 --> 01:06:14,400
mean it's not zero but there are other

1929
01:06:18,309 --> 01:06:16,319
explanations right i mean there's other

1930
01:06:19,910 --> 01:06:18,319
things we can do i mean i know eric

1931
01:06:22,309 --> 01:06:19,920
weinstein at the moment has gone a bit

1932
01:06:24,630 --> 01:06:22,319
kind of ufo you know let's think about

1933
01:06:26,950 --> 01:06:24,640
it but i think he's doing it for not not

1934
01:06:29,430 --> 01:06:26,960
to be disrupt well to be disruptive not

1935
01:06:31,029 --> 01:06:29,440
disingenuous and to get people to take

1936
01:06:34,069 --> 01:06:31,039
people's temperature but coming back to

1937
01:06:35,829 --> 01:06:34,079
this i would say i have seen no no-go

1938
01:06:37,430 --> 01:06:35,839
theorems for for know why life should

1939
01:06:38,789 --> 01:06:37,440
exist elsewhere and given them an

1940
01:06:40,470 --> 01:06:38,799
internal optimist will say well look

1941
01:06:43,270 --> 01:06:40,480
there should be it should be everywhere

1942
01:06:45,670 --> 01:06:43,280
but what i'm super excited about is i

1943
01:06:48,870 --> 01:06:45,680
have a i'm willing to make a wager brian

1944
01:06:50,710 --> 01:06:48,880
is still young i'm even younger um not

1945
01:06:52,549 --> 01:06:50,720
that much but uh

1946
01:06:55,109 --> 01:06:52,559
but in the next decade or two we'll get

1947
01:06:57,510 --> 01:06:55,119
a go to enceladus in europa

1948
01:07:00,069 --> 01:06:57,520
and and titan and i'm willing to bet

1949
01:07:01,750 --> 01:07:00,079
that if there if we do find any evidence

1950
01:07:04,150 --> 01:07:01,760
of life on these

1951
01:07:05,430 --> 01:07:04,160
um objects they will be totally

1952
01:07:06,710 --> 01:07:05,440
different to life on earth because

1953
01:07:09,190 --> 01:07:06,720
they've had a completely different

1954
01:07:11,430 --> 01:07:09,200
history there is no relationship whereas

1955
01:07:13,670 --> 01:07:11,440
we might find life on mars if we haven't

1956
01:07:15,589 --> 01:07:13,680
put life on mars by mistake we might

1957
01:07:17,109 --> 01:07:15,599
find evidence of primitive life on mars

1958
01:07:18,630 --> 01:07:17,119
like going to earth and seeded earth

1959
01:07:20,230 --> 01:07:18,640
right yeah i i agree with that i mean

1960
01:07:22,069 --> 01:07:20,240
but that pushes things back that's just

1961
01:07:23,910 --> 01:07:22,079
changing the day but let me yeah yeah

1962
01:07:25,670 --> 01:07:23,920
exactly i mean life on earth and life on

1963
01:07:27,430 --> 01:07:25,680
mars luckily to be coupled that's not

1964
01:07:29,589 --> 01:07:27,440
that's nothing if we go to mars and we

1965
01:07:31,589 --> 01:07:29,599
find earth like life

1966
01:07:33,510 --> 01:07:31,599
i'll be happy for a day

1967
01:07:34,630 --> 01:07:33,520
and i'll watch the nobel prizes be given

1968
01:07:36,710 --> 01:07:34,640
but i'm like that hasn't told me

1969
01:07:38,710 --> 01:07:36,720
anything new as a scientist i want to

1970
01:07:41,190 --> 01:07:38,720
discover something new if i went to

1971
01:07:44,150 --> 01:07:41,200
enceladus i found life form based on

1972
01:07:45,990 --> 01:07:44,160
something that isn't rna

1973
01:07:48,069 --> 01:07:46,000
that would be it for me that would just

1974
01:07:50,309 --> 01:07:48,079
be like the most amazing event in the

1975
01:07:52,470 --> 01:07:50,319
universe why well if i could find

1976
01:07:55,109 --> 01:07:52,480
different life enceladus i could start

1977
01:07:57,109 --> 01:07:55,119
to frame the likelihood of alien life in

1978
01:07:59,670 --> 01:07:57,119
our local group okay

1979
01:08:01,190 --> 01:07:59,680
um i could think about how we could look

1980
01:08:03,510 --> 01:08:01,200
at making new technologies based on

1981
01:08:05,430 --> 01:08:03,520
living systems on earth and really even

1982
01:08:07,510 --> 01:08:05,440
more important in fact i almost have the

1983
01:08:10,710 --> 01:08:07,520
same passion that brian has for

1984
01:08:12,870 --> 01:08:10,720
understand the origin of universe um for

1985
01:08:14,630 --> 01:08:12,880
this is that if we can make life on

1986
01:08:16,709 --> 01:08:14,640
earth and understand the origin of life

1987
01:08:18,390 --> 01:08:16,719
we might be able to start to accept that

1988
01:08:19,829 --> 01:08:18,400
life on earth that we have right now in

1989
01:08:22,229 --> 01:08:19,839
our ecosystem

1990
01:08:24,550 --> 01:08:22,239
is very precious and

1991
01:08:25,749 --> 01:08:24,560
is a thing and we need to think about

1992
01:08:26,709 --> 01:08:25,759
framing

1993
01:08:31,910 --> 01:08:26,719
this

1994
01:08:33,829 --> 01:08:31,920
you know jewel that we need to keep to

1995
01:08:35,910 --> 01:08:33,839
be as persistent for as long as possible

1996
01:08:38,390 --> 01:08:35,920
and to create maximum flourishing for

1997
01:08:40,550 --> 01:08:38,400
our little moral kind of

1998
01:08:42,709 --> 01:08:40,560
work part in the universe so i think

1999
01:08:44,550 --> 01:08:42,719
almost way if you know there are two

2000
01:08:46,149 --> 01:08:44,560
films i watched i know i'm talking a lot

2001
01:08:48,149 --> 01:08:46,159
but there's two films that came out the

2002
01:08:49,990 --> 01:08:48,159
same year one called ad astra which was

2003
01:08:51,669 --> 01:08:50,000
the most depressing the brian keating

2004
01:08:53,349 --> 01:08:51,679
movie you know

2005
01:08:54,309 --> 01:08:53,359
you're just as good looking as brad pitt

2006
01:08:58,229 --> 01:08:54,319
you know

2007
01:09:01,110 --> 01:08:58,239
another film called cosmos which was a

2008
01:09:02,309 --> 01:09:01,120
low-budget uk movie which i like and you

2009
01:09:03,749 --> 01:09:02,319
should watch them because one basically

2010
01:09:06,309 --> 01:09:03,759
they're both about shall we find life

2011
01:09:07,669 --> 01:09:06,319
and one finds life very optimistic comes

2012
01:09:09,829 --> 01:09:07,679
to earth and says we're here and the

2013
01:09:12,149 --> 01:09:09,839
other one is like miserable there's no

2014
01:09:14,070 --> 01:09:12,159
life anywhere and for me

2015
01:09:15,829 --> 01:09:14,080
i think the difference between us is i'm

2016
01:09:18,390 --> 01:09:15,839
an optimist because i understand my

2017
01:09:19,990 --> 01:09:18,400
chemistry and i'm a chemist you're an

2018
01:09:21,749 --> 01:09:20,000
optimist in your field you understand

2019
01:09:23,189 --> 01:09:21,759
that and i'm trying to i'm trying to

2020
01:09:24,550 --> 01:09:23,199
borrow a bit of your

2021
01:09:25,829 --> 01:09:24,560
intuition and i'm trying to lend you a

2022
01:09:27,110 --> 01:09:25,839
bit of mind and see if we can change

2023
01:09:29,269 --> 01:09:27,120
each other's mind from that point of

2024
01:09:32,149 --> 01:09:29,279
view but you're absolutely right

2025
01:09:34,149 --> 01:09:32,159
i have no evidence but i have no reason

2026
01:09:36,470 --> 01:09:34,159
why it can't happen there is nothing

2027
01:09:38,390 --> 01:09:36,480
magic about life on earth

2028
01:09:40,390 --> 01:09:38,400
yeah well i wonder if we could have a

2029
01:09:41,910 --> 01:09:40,400
no-go theorem if you uh if you would

2030
01:09:44,309 --> 01:09:41,920
agree and then you know perhaps that

2031
01:09:47,349 --> 01:09:44,319
would make our our generous host

2032
01:09:48,870 --> 01:09:47,359
generous good looking and uh and uh just

2033
01:09:50,950 --> 01:09:48,880
with a delightful aroma although i've

2034
01:09:52,149 --> 01:09:50,960
never met him in person kurt's one of my

2035
01:09:53,990 --> 01:09:52,159
best friends that i've never met in

2036
01:09:56,950 --> 01:09:54,000
person i hope to rectify that in the

2037
01:09:58,709 --> 01:09:56,960
very near future you too lee um but you

2038
01:10:01,669 --> 01:09:58,719
you brought up eric you brought up and

2039
01:10:04,550 --> 01:10:01,679
so i find that there is sort of a uh a

2040
01:10:06,630 --> 01:10:04,560
wish fulfillment aspect in in in many of

2041
01:10:09,910 --> 01:10:06,640
these things including in this huge and

2042
01:10:12,149 --> 01:10:09,920
deservedly so excitement over jwst i

2043
01:10:14,630 --> 01:10:12,159
mean i basically heard people portraying

2044
01:10:16,470 --> 01:10:14,640
one of the science cases for jwst

2045
01:10:18,870 --> 01:10:16,480
tantamount to well we're going to see

2046
01:10:20,390 --> 01:10:18,880
like cities on exoplanet you know like

2047
01:10:22,550 --> 01:10:20,400
no you're not you're going to see like

2048
01:10:25,350 --> 01:10:22,560
spectral lines and and often eric has

2049
01:10:26,950 --> 01:10:25,360
talked about data and collecting data um

2050
01:10:28,950 --> 01:10:26,960
and and it's our data the hubble space

2051
01:10:31,510 --> 01:10:28,960
telescope is our day like

2052
01:10:33,030 --> 01:10:31,520
well it's data but like take the hubble

2053
01:10:35,430 --> 01:10:33,040
deep field i love mentioning this topic

2054
01:10:37,350 --> 01:10:35,440
so the hubble deep field is data but

2055
01:10:39,990 --> 01:10:37,360
actually we don't use it uh the data the

2056
01:10:41,910 --> 01:10:40,000
image for anything it's a screen saver i

2057
01:10:43,830 --> 01:10:41,920
call it the cosmic screen saver cosmic

2058
01:10:45,910 --> 01:10:43,840
wallpaper and that's all the image

2059
01:10:47,510 --> 01:10:45,920
itself is the data is within it so if

2060
01:10:49,830 --> 01:10:47,520
there's a ufo floating around in there

2061
01:10:51,830 --> 01:10:49,840
that is not the same as what astronomers

2062
01:10:54,070 --> 01:10:51,840
call the type of evidence that we

2063
01:10:56,390 --> 01:10:54,080
associate with data stuff that we can be

2064
01:10:59,430 --> 01:10:56,400
quantitative and analyze spectral time

2065
01:11:00,790 --> 01:10:59,440
domain uh multi-waterfall display you

2066
01:11:02,870 --> 01:11:00,800
know we can do a ton of stuff with

2067
01:11:04,550 --> 01:11:02,880
actual with the photon information not

2068
01:11:05,990 --> 01:11:04,560
just the image information the picture

2069
01:11:08,550 --> 01:11:06,000
information

2070
01:11:10,630 --> 01:11:08,560
now mentioning this there

2071
01:11:12,709 --> 01:11:10,640
there are you know concerns about what

2072
01:11:15,110 --> 01:11:12,719
the implication would be and so i'm

2073
01:11:17,590 --> 01:11:15,120
curious to to know why if life is so

2074
01:11:20,149 --> 01:11:17,600
abundant and then you sprinkle in some

2075
01:11:22,070 --> 01:11:20,159
darwinian evolution why isn't you know a

2076
01:11:24,310 --> 01:11:22,080
technological life abundant and why

2077
01:11:25,669 --> 01:11:24,320
isn't it more plausible than not it

2078
01:11:29,350 --> 01:11:25,679
seems like you're saying you're you're

2079
01:11:31,669 --> 01:11:29,360
kind of a a a life maximalist but a ufo

2080
01:11:33,189 --> 01:11:31,679
minimalist so so tell me what how can

2081
01:11:35,110 --> 01:11:33,199
you rectify those two things because it

2082
01:11:37,110 --> 01:11:35,120
would seem to me unless there's a no-go

2083
01:11:38,870 --> 01:11:37,120
theorem against it that maybe there is

2084
01:11:40,630 --> 01:11:38,880
more hope i get around that by saying i

2085
01:11:42,229 --> 01:11:40,640
don't think life exists elsewhere

2086
01:11:44,229 --> 01:11:42,239
besides the earth and if it does it's

2087
01:11:46,149 --> 01:11:44,239
from the earth via panspermic processes

2088
01:11:49,270 --> 01:11:46,159
but but tell me what what could

2089
01:11:50,790 --> 01:11:49,280
potentially uh forbid life from evolving

2090
01:11:52,470 --> 01:11:50,800
technologically

2091
01:11:53,910 --> 01:11:52,480
yeah yeah so i'm gonna say a couple of

2092
01:11:55,110 --> 01:11:53,920
things so i think kurt if you want to go

2093
01:11:56,310 --> 01:11:55,120
to assembly through we'll do that in a

2094
01:11:58,470 --> 01:11:56,320
minute i think it's quite important the

2095
01:12:00,390 --> 01:11:58,480
story but let me answer brian's question

2096
01:12:02,070 --> 01:12:00,400
i asked so i think you know there's a

2097
01:12:04,470 --> 01:12:02,080
scooby-doo you know the ways the the

2098
01:12:06,149 --> 01:12:04,480
villain says you pissed pesky kids i'm

2099
01:12:07,750 --> 01:12:06,159
gonna say the reason why we can't see

2100
01:12:09,990 --> 01:12:07,760
technological life as you pesky

2101
01:12:12,149 --> 01:12:10,000
physicists because the universe is

2102
01:12:15,510 --> 01:12:12,159
really big and things are accelerating

2103
01:12:17,910 --> 01:12:15,520
away and it's you know and sadly

2104
01:12:20,149 --> 01:12:17,920
um you know i'd love to break the i'd

2105
01:12:21,990 --> 01:12:20,159
love to understand more about the the

2106
01:12:24,390 --> 01:12:22,000
way the universe is and the speed of

2107
01:12:25,830 --> 01:12:24,400
light and get around but the fact is

2108
01:12:27,750 --> 01:12:25,840
there seems to be little indication that

2109
01:12:29,189 --> 01:12:27,760
we can have wormholes and and break the

2110
01:12:30,790 --> 01:12:29,199
speed of light and

2111
01:12:32,470 --> 01:12:30,800
you know designing

2112
01:12:34,229 --> 01:12:32,480
as a quick clarification i'm sorry to

2113
01:12:36,070 --> 01:12:34,239
interject lee then when you say that

2114
01:12:38,950 --> 01:12:36,080
life is abundant in the universe are you

2115
01:12:40,630 --> 01:12:38,960
not referring to the observable universe

2116
01:12:42,070 --> 01:12:40,640
sure i think it's abundant in the

2117
01:12:43,669 --> 01:12:42,080
observable universe and we'll learn how

2118
01:12:45,669 --> 01:12:43,679
to find it and i think actually

2119
01:12:48,070 --> 01:12:45,679
frustratingly we probably will find

2120
01:12:50,229 --> 01:12:48,080
techno signatures uh

2121
01:12:51,910 --> 01:12:50,239
you know hints of them and not just

2122
01:12:53,430 --> 01:12:51,920
hints hints that brian and i will look

2123
01:12:56,229 --> 01:12:53,440
at the data we'll look at the

2124
01:12:57,750 --> 01:12:56,239
uncertainty the error bars your point is

2125
01:12:59,750 --> 01:12:57,760
taken i haven't forgotten it's a very

2126
01:13:02,470 --> 01:12:59,760
good point brian and we will then go

2127
01:13:05,030 --> 01:13:02,480
well the balance is fact here is like we

2128
01:13:06,390 --> 01:13:05,040
will be it is possible remotely to get

2129
01:13:08,310 --> 01:13:06,400
data

2130
01:13:10,390 --> 01:13:08,320
uh um squeeze down those areas and know

2131
01:13:12,070 --> 01:13:10,400
for sure there's alien technological

2132
01:13:14,709 --> 01:13:12,080
life elsewhere in the universe we could

2133
01:13:16,470 --> 01:13:14,719
do it okay and don't let nasa and other

2134
01:13:18,709 --> 01:13:16,480
people say it's not we can do it we can

2135
01:13:20,709 --> 01:13:18,719
detect the higgs boson if we can look at

2136
01:13:23,590 --> 01:13:20,719
the cosmic microwave background we will

2137
01:13:25,990 --> 01:13:23,600
be our fine technological um signatures

2138
01:13:27,590 --> 01:13:26,000
but we but we need a better theory which

2139
01:13:29,590 --> 01:13:27,600
i'm trying to introduce it might not be

2140
01:13:31,590 --> 01:13:29,600
the right one but i've got a feeling

2141
01:13:33,669 --> 01:13:31,600
it's going that direction but to answer

2142
01:13:35,510 --> 01:13:33,679
the question where all the technology is

2143
01:13:37,750 --> 01:13:35,520
there's a number of answers to that but

2144
01:13:39,750 --> 01:13:37,760
i want to say something quite profound

2145
01:13:41,510 --> 01:13:39,760
if time really is a thing and let's say

2146
01:13:43,750 --> 01:13:41,520
time is a commodity

2147
01:13:45,510 --> 01:13:43,760
and at the beginning of our local

2148
01:13:47,430 --> 01:13:45,520
universe where the laws are now i'm

2149
01:13:48,870 --> 01:13:47,440
going to define time and this is going

2150
01:13:50,550 --> 01:13:48,880
to be like

2151
01:13:52,390 --> 01:13:50,560
i mean i'm not a very good singer but

2152
01:13:53,990 --> 01:13:52,400
this is going to be like brian hearing a

2153
01:13:56,470 --> 01:13:54,000
really bad singer

2154
01:13:57,750 --> 01:13:56,480
and he's like breaking physics but here

2155
01:13:59,110 --> 01:13:57,760
i'll try

2156
01:14:01,270 --> 01:13:59,120
at the origin of the universe it was

2157
01:14:03,669 --> 01:14:01,280
some kind of singularity which basically

2158
01:14:06,149 --> 01:14:03,679
we seem to be we were kind of one

2159
01:14:08,390 --> 01:14:06,159
quantumly connected one particle let's

2160
01:14:09,669 --> 01:14:08,400
say and through that causal

2161
01:14:10,550 --> 01:14:09,679
aperture

2162
01:14:28,790 --> 01:14:10,560
the

2163
01:14:29,830 --> 01:14:28,800
just contingencies right and so so we

2164
01:14:32,070 --> 01:14:29,840
have that

2165
01:14:34,229 --> 01:14:32,080
and then from that that process that

2166
01:14:35,430 --> 01:14:34,239
point in time where the universe

2167
01:14:36,550 --> 01:14:35,440
expanded

2168
01:14:38,149 --> 01:14:36,560
and i think

2169
01:14:40,709 --> 01:14:38,159
again brian has the history of the

2170
01:14:42,550 --> 01:14:40,719
universe down like i think if i remember

2171
01:14:44,310 --> 01:14:42,560
i'm studying you that all the hydrogen

2172
01:14:46,310 --> 01:14:44,320
in the universe was made in the first 20

2173
01:14:48,950 --> 01:14:46,320
minutes or something which is just a

2174
01:14:52,070 --> 01:14:48,960
mind-blowing uh uh kind of fact and it's

2175
01:14:54,550 --> 01:14:52,080
true than the big bang theory tv show

2176
01:14:56,550 --> 01:14:54,560
exactly that's a great so now you've got

2177
01:14:58,149 --> 01:14:56,560
this stuff right

2178
01:14:59,750 --> 01:14:58,159
in time

2179
01:15:01,510 --> 01:14:59,760
now the reason is the clock is ticking

2180
01:15:03,430 --> 01:15:01,520
now at that time you don't have enough

2181
01:15:06,229 --> 01:15:03,440
states in the universe

2182
01:15:07,430 --> 01:15:06,239
to actually produce life it's kind of

2183
01:15:09,750 --> 01:15:07,440
cool

2184
01:15:11,750 --> 01:15:09,760
basically you actually they're the fermi

2185
01:15:13,350 --> 01:15:11,760
paradox and i'm saying i have to qualify

2186
01:15:15,669 --> 01:15:13,360
this because i'm stealing this idea i

2187
01:15:17,110 --> 01:15:15,679
agree with it from sarah walker so i you

2188
01:15:18,950 --> 01:15:17,120
know i'm not very good well i should be

2189
01:15:21,110 --> 01:15:18,960
clear i should steal more ideas but but

2190
01:15:22,070 --> 01:15:21,120
she's convinced me and i and i also

2191
01:15:24,550 --> 01:15:22,080
think it's true it's a natural

2192
01:15:27,270 --> 01:15:24,560
consequence of assembly theory the fermi

2193
01:15:29,350 --> 01:15:27,280
paradox is not about the fact that we

2194
01:15:31,830 --> 01:15:29,360
that we don't see the aliens just

2195
01:15:33,189 --> 01:15:31,840
the we're looking back in time and at

2196
01:15:35,350 --> 01:15:33,199
that time the universe didn't have the

2197
01:15:37,270 --> 01:15:35,360
ability to produce technology so it's

2198
01:15:39,510 --> 01:15:37,280
like a fermi filter now think for a

2199
01:15:41,270 --> 01:15:39,520
second it's like oh

2200
01:15:42,709 --> 01:15:41,280
we looking back in time the universe

2201
01:15:45,189 --> 01:15:42,719
didn't have the ability to produce

2202
01:15:46,709 --> 01:15:45,199
technology at that time

2203
01:15:49,030 --> 01:15:46,719
we have to look in a different way

2204
01:15:50,550 --> 01:15:49,040
actually i i'll push back again uh just

2205
01:15:52,470 --> 01:15:50,560
to say that there was an epoch in the

2206
01:15:55,030 --> 01:15:52,480
universe where you didn't need a hard

2207
01:15:57,110 --> 01:15:55,040
rocky planet to sustain uh room

2208
01:15:59,030 --> 01:15:57,120
temperature liquid water and that was a

2209
01:16:01,110 --> 01:15:59,040
time about you know eight billion years

2210
01:16:03,510 --> 01:16:01,120
ago when the universe curt was at the

2211
01:16:05,990 --> 01:16:03,520
temperature above zero degrees celsius

2212
01:16:08,229 --> 01:16:06,000
which is uh you know about 50 degrees

2213
01:16:09,590 --> 01:16:08,239
warmer than it is in toronto or glasgow

2214
01:16:10,950 --> 01:16:09,600
i'm just trying to make you guys jealous

2215
01:16:13,270 --> 01:16:10,960
you'll visit me here in san diego in

2216
01:16:15,669 --> 01:16:13,280
january sometime um so the universe

2217
01:16:17,350 --> 01:16:15,679
could have liquid water for millions

2218
01:16:19,270 --> 01:16:17,360
billions of years until it become frozen

2219
01:16:20,950 --> 01:16:19,280
water um and so actually no there

2220
01:16:23,350 --> 01:16:20,960
there's a reverse filter there there's

2221
01:16:25,189 --> 01:16:23,360
sort of a system no no no no that's that

2222
01:16:26,470 --> 01:16:25,199
i have to push back that's quite nice

2223
01:16:28,070 --> 01:16:26,480
but i'm saying

2224
01:16:30,390 --> 01:16:28,080
something very

2225
01:16:32,149 --> 01:16:30,400
profound in terms of the the number of

2226
01:16:33,990 --> 01:16:32,159
states available i don't care how much

2227
01:16:35,590 --> 01:16:34,000
water's available who cares what i care

2228
01:16:37,110 --> 01:16:35,600
about is a combinatorial state space

2229
01:16:38,790 --> 01:16:37,120
remember i'm not a chemist here i'm a

2230
01:16:40,550 --> 01:16:38,800
mathematician within the states so

2231
01:16:41,830 --> 01:16:40,560
you're right with kurt but kurt the

2232
01:16:43,590 --> 01:16:41,840
amount i'm going to have sarah on my

2233
01:16:45,669 --> 01:16:43,600
show next week but but uh and i'll ask

2234
01:16:48,149 --> 01:16:45,679
her about this but the the i mean is it

2235
01:16:50,149 --> 01:16:48,159
galaxy is one galaxy sufficient uh space

2236
01:16:51,750 --> 01:16:50,159
state space to create technological life

2237
01:16:53,669 --> 01:16:51,760
obviously this is what we're this is

2238
01:16:56,070 --> 01:16:53,679
what i think i think the answer is no

2239
01:16:57,669 --> 01:16:56,080
right and i what we just let's just keep

2240
01:17:00,310 --> 01:16:57,679
going with this argument there's let's

2241
01:17:01,910 --> 01:17:00,320
just make a conjecture i don't know

2242
01:17:03,350 --> 01:17:01,920
right but isn't it interesting you've

2243
01:17:04,709 --> 01:17:03,360
got a smaller volume in the universe

2244
01:17:07,270 --> 01:17:04,719
time is a thing so you're not going back

2245
01:17:09,510 --> 01:17:07,280
and forth so you have to

2246
01:17:12,149 --> 01:17:09,520
um there's this causal chain of events i

2247
01:17:14,310 --> 01:17:12,159
don't know how delicate it plays into

2248
01:17:16,630 --> 01:17:14,320
your argument really nicely what

2249
01:17:19,270 --> 01:17:16,640
sequence of events have to happen in the

2250
01:17:21,350 --> 01:17:19,280
first 20 minutes the next 200 million

2251
01:17:23,750 --> 01:17:21,360
years the next two billion years to

2252
01:17:27,189 --> 01:17:23,760
prepare the universe to be able to

2253
01:17:29,189 --> 01:17:27,199
metabolize elements fusion right

2254
01:17:31,830 --> 01:17:29,199
produce objects that can then have

2255
01:17:33,669 --> 01:17:31,840
enough structure enough surface area for

2256
01:17:35,590 --> 01:17:33,679
selection to occur

2257
01:17:37,030 --> 01:17:35,600
over a period of time so you might not

2258
01:17:38,950 --> 01:17:37,040
you might need stability of a few

2259
01:17:40,390 --> 01:17:38,960
hundred million years with a certain

2260
01:17:42,310 --> 01:17:40,400
gravitational force but let's not add

2261
01:17:44,950 --> 01:17:42,320
that on i'm just saying hey wouldn't it

2262
01:17:47,750 --> 01:17:44,960
be cool if the fermi paradox is actually

2263
01:17:50,630 --> 01:17:47,760
just evidence the universe had not yet

2264
01:17:51,669 --> 01:17:50,640
had enough causal history to produce

2265
01:17:54,070 --> 01:17:51,679
life

2266
01:17:56,790 --> 01:17:54,080
we popped up as soon as it could so we

2267
01:17:58,950 --> 01:17:56,800
should go ah okay let's now i'll say

2268
01:18:01,750 --> 01:17:58,960
let's just make this very simple for

2269
01:18:03,990 --> 01:18:01,760
ourselves and say life in the universe

2270
01:18:05,669 --> 01:18:04,000
kind of started to emerge when life

2271
01:18:06,550 --> 01:18:05,679
let's say there's nothing special about

2272
01:18:07,910 --> 01:18:06,560
earth

2273
01:18:09,510 --> 01:18:07,920
happened quickly

2274
01:18:11,590 --> 01:18:09,520
so life was possible in the universe

2275
01:18:13,590 --> 01:18:11,600
about 4 billion years ago and so what we

2276
01:18:14,870 --> 01:18:13,600
now do is we reframe our observations

2277
01:18:16,790 --> 01:18:14,880
and we look around i'm just making this

2278
01:18:18,470 --> 01:18:16,800
up so no idea i had today thanks to

2279
01:18:19,270 --> 01:18:18,480
sarah's idea and brian's question and

2280
01:18:20,709 --> 01:18:19,280
yours did you come up with the

2281
01:18:21,910 --> 01:18:20,719
metabolized elements because that's a

2282
01:18:23,030 --> 01:18:21,920
cool line i'm going to steal that yeah

2283
01:18:24,390 --> 01:18:23,040
yeah i just made it up i wouldn't steal

2284
01:18:26,070 --> 01:18:24,400
it from sarah i would steal it from you

2285
01:18:28,310 --> 01:18:26,080
no no no i you could steal that from me

2286
01:18:29,750 --> 01:18:28,320
i just made it up just now um and so

2287
01:18:30,870 --> 01:18:29,760
you've kind of got this idea that

2288
01:18:33,350 --> 01:18:30,880
basically

2289
01:18:34,870 --> 01:18:33,360
um you're creating this infrastructure

2290
01:18:37,510 --> 01:18:34,880
for causation

2291
01:18:39,669 --> 01:18:37,520
that that allows you to go a bit further

2292
01:18:42,630 --> 01:18:39,679
and and so what happens i don't know i

2293
01:18:44,950 --> 01:18:42,640
mean if only we had an astronomer who

2294
01:18:46,310 --> 01:18:44,960
understood how to look back here like if

2295
01:18:48,149 --> 01:18:46,320
you read through the lines right we're

2296
01:18:49,590 --> 01:18:48,159
going to now restrict ourselves looking

2297
01:18:52,070 --> 01:18:49,600
for a 4 billion

2298
01:18:53,750 --> 01:18:52,080
year old light cone and we look at the

2299
01:18:55,030 --> 01:18:53,760
exoplanets other objects how does that

2300
01:18:58,229 --> 01:18:55,040
reframe

2301
01:18:59,669 --> 01:18:58,239
the search for life or intelligence so i

2302
01:19:01,110 --> 01:18:59,679
mean there's lots of ideas there so the

2303
01:19:02,950 --> 01:19:01,120
conjecture is

2304
01:19:04,709 --> 01:19:02,960
there is a filter that is just the

2305
01:19:07,350 --> 01:19:04,719
universe wasn't capable of producing

2306
01:19:08,950 --> 01:19:07,360
life until a particular time now it is

2307
01:19:10,870 --> 01:19:08,960
then technology and then how does that

2308
01:19:13,510 --> 01:19:10,880
go on and that plays into redoing our

2309
01:19:16,870 --> 01:19:13,520
error bars in the in the in the in the

2310
01:19:20,950 --> 01:19:16,880
fermi paradox and in the drake equation

2311
01:19:23,669 --> 01:19:20,960
and also i hide my only shield brian is

2312
01:19:25,830 --> 01:19:23,679
i don't see anything magic on earth

2313
01:19:27,669 --> 01:19:25,840
so it's probably possible elsewhere

2314
01:19:29,669 --> 01:19:27,679
because okay so that's a great point let

2315
01:19:31,189 --> 01:19:29,679
me interject because you're

2316
01:19:33,350 --> 01:19:31,199
it's difficult to interject without

2317
01:19:36,390 --> 01:19:33,360
interrupting i'm sorry lee no no it's

2318
01:19:39,270 --> 01:19:36,400
all good your podcast uh you you beat us

2319
01:19:41,030 --> 01:19:39,280
in come on yeah okay great you use many

2320
01:19:42,790 --> 01:19:41,040
ants and so i'm not sure if the sentence

2321
01:19:45,270 --> 01:19:42,800
is complete or if it's run on and i

2322
01:19:46,790 --> 01:19:45,280
don't want to seem rude okay so brian

2323
01:19:48,870 --> 01:19:46,800
you just made a great point what is an

2324
01:19:50,310 --> 01:19:48,880
example of some other phenomenon that

2325
01:19:52,310 --> 01:19:50,320
happens on earth that doesn't occur

2326
01:19:53,990 --> 01:19:52,320
elsewhere in the universe so water waves

2327
01:19:57,510 --> 01:19:54,000
may be one well there's maybe water

2328
01:19:59,270 --> 01:19:57,520
waves in mountains atmosphere okay so

2329
01:20:01,350 --> 01:19:59,280
given that it sounds like there's

2330
01:20:03,750 --> 01:20:01,360
nothing special about earth's life so

2331
01:20:06,149 --> 01:20:03,760
why are you isolating earth's life

2332
01:20:07,990 --> 01:20:06,159
as saying well that's unique

2333
01:20:09,350 --> 01:20:08,000
on example these if these plot you know

2334
01:20:11,110 --> 01:20:09,360
it's like they want to have their you

2335
01:20:12,310 --> 01:20:11,120
know primordial soup and eat it too you

2336
01:20:15,350 --> 01:20:12,320
know they want to say it's ubiquitous

2337
01:20:16,790 --> 01:20:15,360
these processes are generic uh and yet

2338
01:20:18,470 --> 01:20:16,800
not seeing it you know it's more than

2339
01:20:20,709 --> 01:20:18,480
just a fermi paradox and i will push

2340
01:20:23,030 --> 01:20:20,719
back on sarah gently with respect uh

2341
01:20:25,189 --> 01:20:23,040
because i love her work uh uh but but

2342
01:20:27,590 --> 01:20:25,199
the fact is you know though those are

2343
01:20:29,030 --> 01:20:27,600
almost borderline you know kind of ideas

2344
01:20:30,790 --> 01:20:29,040
that i hear from intelligent designers

2345
01:20:32,630 --> 01:20:30,800
too you know which is that the laws of

2346
01:20:34,310 --> 01:20:32,640
physics the state space of the laws of

2347
01:20:36,709 --> 01:20:34,320
physics the constants of nature the mass

2348
01:20:38,149 --> 01:20:36,719
of the electron the uh fine structure

2349
01:20:41,510 --> 01:20:38,159
constant all the things you talked about

2350
01:20:43,830 --> 01:20:41,520
are implied um those you know are can be

2351
01:20:45,669 --> 01:20:43,840
con conflated with you know some kind of

2352
01:20:47,510 --> 01:20:45,679
low entropy state instantiated by a

2353
01:20:49,590 --> 01:20:47,520
designer i don't want to talk about that

2354
01:20:52,070 --> 01:20:49,600
except to say that i don't think that

2355
01:20:53,830 --> 01:20:52,080
that pushes the pro that filter is very

2356
01:20:56,229 --> 01:20:53,840
fine cor fine grain and i will talk to

2357
01:20:58,229 --> 01:20:56,239
her about it but i do want to say that

2358
01:21:00,870 --> 01:20:58,239
again generically speaking these

2359
01:21:02,630 --> 01:21:00,880
processes are ubiquitous so therefore

2360
01:21:04,470 --> 01:21:02,640
the non-observation like that should go

2361
01:21:06,070 --> 01:21:04,480
into the fermi paradox not that the

2362
01:21:08,790 --> 01:21:06,080
universe is large

2363
01:21:10,870 --> 01:21:08,800
uh that these processes are uh you know

2364
01:21:13,430 --> 01:21:10,880
we we just detected uh you know we've

2365
01:21:15,430 --> 01:21:13,440
detected uh helioseismological effects

2366
01:21:17,270 --> 01:21:15,440
on other stars we've detected uh the

2367
01:21:19,189 --> 01:21:17,280
existence of you know what we think are

2368
01:21:21,510 --> 01:21:19,199
continental you know patterns so

2369
01:21:23,669 --> 01:21:21,520
tectonic you know potential potentiality

2370
01:21:25,750 --> 01:21:23,679
for tectonic activity which we do

2371
01:21:27,750 --> 01:21:25,760
believe some believe are but all this

2372
01:21:29,750 --> 01:21:27,760
kind of pushes things back like one of

2373
01:21:31,590 --> 01:21:29,760
my big um gripes against the seti

2374
01:21:33,830 --> 01:21:31,600
institute which i know and love and i've

2375
01:21:36,390 --> 01:21:33,840
had jill tarter and seth sostak and i've

2376
01:21:38,709 --> 01:21:36,400
donated to them um and and i've spoken

2377
01:21:40,229 --> 01:21:38,719
there but you know i started to get a

2378
01:21:41,910 --> 01:21:40,239
little bit suspicious when a couple

2379
01:21:43,910 --> 01:21:41,920
years ago they started shifting away

2380
01:21:46,390 --> 01:21:43,920
from the existence of live techno

2381
01:21:48,470 --> 01:21:46,400
signatures to extremophiles here on

2382
01:21:50,070 --> 01:21:48,480
earth i don't think that necessarily

2383
01:21:51,189 --> 01:21:50,080
answers or gets to the heart of the

2384
01:21:53,110 --> 01:21:51,199
question certainly not of

2385
01:21:56,390 --> 01:21:53,120
extraterrestrial intelligence to know

2386
01:21:58,870 --> 01:21:56,400
some smokey uh deep smoker has uh you

2387
01:22:01,750 --> 01:21:58,880
know has bacteria or cyanogenic bacteria

2388
01:22:03,750 --> 01:22:01,760
or or prokaryotic type whatever that's

2389
01:22:07,189 --> 01:22:03,760
interesting but it's not aligned with

2390
01:22:08,709 --> 01:22:07,199
eti that's what i care about i mean

2391
01:22:10,790 --> 01:22:08,719
yeah let's cut the bs what we really

2392
01:22:12,950 --> 01:22:10,800
care about is making contact as eric

2393
01:22:15,590 --> 01:22:12,960
says you know if you could short circuit

2394
01:22:17,430 --> 01:22:15,600
and get to the laws of the 25th century

2395
01:22:19,510 --> 01:22:17,440
and get to the other side maybe we would

2396
01:22:21,750 --> 01:22:19,520
pass the great filter you know as it's

2397
01:22:23,590 --> 01:22:21,760
been called and protect ourselves and i

2398
01:22:24,550 --> 01:22:23,600
i happen to think that might be wishful

2399
01:22:26,229 --> 01:22:24,560
thinking

2400
01:22:28,310 --> 01:22:26,239
but i commend eric for working on y'all

2401
01:22:30,310 --> 01:22:28,320
theory to perhaps unlock some of these

2402
01:22:33,189 --> 01:22:30,320
uh some of these portals as he calls it

2403
01:22:35,110 --> 01:22:33,199
um but but nevertheless i i think again

2404
01:22:37,910 --> 01:22:35,120
is there you know is there a rubric that

2405
01:22:39,350 --> 01:22:37,920
you and i could agree on or disagree on

2406
01:22:40,229 --> 01:22:39,360
and i think the audience would like to

2407
01:22:42,950 --> 01:22:40,239
know

2408
01:22:44,790 --> 01:22:42,960
are there um in other words if you hear

2409
01:22:47,350 --> 01:22:44,800
you know there's been an a credible

2410
01:22:49,910 --> 01:22:47,360
account louis elizondo past guests on

2411
01:22:53,030 --> 01:22:49,920
kurt show um you know has claimed you

2412
01:22:54,709 --> 01:22:53,040
know really very very high credence

2413
01:22:56,709 --> 01:22:54,719
levels in the existence of

2414
01:22:58,470 --> 01:22:56,719
extraterrestrials capable of

2415
01:23:00,709 --> 01:22:58,480
technologically navigating across our

2416
01:23:02,550 --> 01:23:00,719
galaxy correct me if i'm misstating or

2417
01:23:05,590 --> 01:23:02,560
overstating the basic point as a

2418
01:23:07,590 --> 01:23:05,600
physicist cares about um and that is um

2419
01:23:09,350 --> 01:23:07,600
you know non god bless you lee non god

2420
01:23:11,270 --> 01:23:09,360
bless you or whatever

2421
01:23:13,750 --> 01:23:11,280
darwin bless you darwin bless you when

2422
01:23:16,070 --> 01:23:13,760
you sneeze i have to say that uh but but

2423
01:23:18,470 --> 01:23:16,080
he's making this so can we by laws of

2424
01:23:20,310 --> 01:23:18,480
chemistry physics assembly whatever can

2425
01:23:22,950 --> 01:23:20,320
we say no we actually shouldn't have the

2426
01:23:25,430 --> 01:23:22,960
cr you know credulity that lee that uh

2427
01:23:27,750 --> 01:23:25,440
that luis has uh and instead we should

2428
01:23:30,149 --> 01:23:27,760
he should update his priors based on

2429
01:23:31,990 --> 01:23:30,159
these following chemical physical

2430
01:23:33,910 --> 01:23:32,000
mathematical laws is there a way that we

2431
01:23:35,270 --> 01:23:33,920
can do that for them i think so i think

2432
01:23:36,229 --> 01:23:35,280
there's a way to do this let me just

2433
01:23:38,470 --> 01:23:36,239
answer a little bit and then i'll

2434
01:23:40,550 --> 01:23:38,480
explain assembly theory so yeah i think

2435
01:23:41,430 --> 01:23:40,560
what i think is likely to happen

2436
01:23:42,870 --> 01:23:41,440
if

2437
01:23:43,669 --> 01:23:42,880
i mean i don't know i mean like i have

2438
01:23:46,229 --> 01:23:43,679
no

2439
01:23:48,470 --> 01:23:46,239
i'm a curious i would i think it's

2440
01:23:49,830 --> 01:23:48,480
likely that we if life exists in the

2441
01:23:51,910 --> 01:23:49,840
solar system

2442
01:23:54,310 --> 01:23:51,920
some chemical lice life

2443
01:23:56,550 --> 01:23:54,320
um i'm i'm optimistic that we'll go and

2444
01:23:59,030 --> 01:23:56,560
find some evidence with some

2445
01:24:00,310 --> 01:23:59,040
you know sending dragonfly to titan the

2446
01:24:02,550 --> 01:24:00,320
mass spectrometer on it we're going to

2447
01:24:04,390 --> 01:24:02,560
hopefully go to europa and so on

2448
01:24:06,790 --> 01:24:04,400
we're going to hopefully do origin of

2449
01:24:08,709 --> 01:24:06,800
life on earth and when i succeed but

2450
01:24:10,310 --> 01:24:08,719
don't get the nobel prize i can write my

2451
01:24:11,750 --> 01:24:10,320
other book you know i can get brian to

2452
01:24:13,510 --> 01:24:11,760
do it forward in it and all that because

2453
01:24:15,590 --> 01:24:13,520
we chemists hate it and what we're

2454
01:24:17,990 --> 01:24:15,600
likely to do i think is we should be

2455
01:24:19,510 --> 01:24:18,000
looking for technology technological

2456
01:24:20,950 --> 01:24:19,520
techno signatures

2457
01:24:22,310 --> 01:24:20,960
you know i mean i think that the

2458
01:24:24,149 --> 01:24:22,320
exoplanet we're going to detect an

2459
01:24:25,510 --> 01:24:24,159
exoplanet of oxygen on them so we found

2460
01:24:27,910 --> 01:24:25,520
life and that's just going to be baloney

2461
01:24:29,270 --> 01:24:27,920
so that's that i agree with brian so let

2462
01:24:30,870 --> 01:24:29,280
me just tell you briefly what assembly

2463
01:24:33,110 --> 01:24:30,880
theory is because assembly theory is

2464
01:24:34,229 --> 01:24:33,120
actually a kind of a cool way of

2465
01:24:36,870 --> 01:24:34,239
actually

2466
01:24:37,910 --> 01:24:36,880
doing entropy without labeling and it's

2467
01:24:40,709 --> 01:24:37,920
just about

2468
01:24:42,550 --> 01:24:40,719
as a chemist i realized years ago

2469
01:24:44,950 --> 01:24:42,560
that there are molecules on earth that

2470
01:24:46,950 --> 01:24:44,960
are just weird right weird molecules

2471
01:24:48,790 --> 01:24:46,960
like really complex and so let's just

2472
01:24:51,430 --> 01:24:48,800
take a molecule that i that is used a

2473
01:24:53,590 --> 01:24:51,440
lot called taxol taxol

2474
01:24:55,430 --> 01:24:53,600
is made by the pacific yew tree it's a

2475
01:24:56,870 --> 01:24:55,440
metabolism it's a it's a it's a

2476
01:24:59,110 --> 01:24:56,880
secondary metabolite which means it's

2477
01:25:00,790 --> 01:24:59,120
made by protein interaction proteins in

2478
01:25:03,990 --> 01:25:00,800
the cell and that molecule is really

2479
01:25:06,709 --> 01:25:04,000
special because it's very good at um

2480
01:25:09,350 --> 01:25:06,719
killing vascular polarization of cancer

2481
01:25:11,510 --> 01:25:09,360
tumors so people get that and they they

2482
01:25:15,030 --> 01:25:11,520
use it as an anti-cancer drug now to

2483
01:25:17,510 --> 01:25:15,040
make this molecule it's like got 62

2484
01:25:20,709 --> 01:25:17,520
carbon atoms you know load of oxygen

2485
01:25:23,030 --> 01:25:20,719
atoms nitrogen and so on in this pattern

2486
01:25:24,550 --> 01:25:23,040
and this molecule has a molecular weight

2487
01:25:27,350 --> 01:25:24,560
of about

2488
01:25:28,709 --> 01:25:27,360
852

2489
01:25:30,550 --> 01:25:28,719
something like this so i'm going to go

2490
01:25:32,229 --> 01:25:30,560
and check it now

2491
01:25:33,510 --> 01:25:32,239
it's like okay like i'll google it

2492
01:25:36,070 --> 01:25:33,520
whilst i'm saying but it's a big

2493
01:25:37,750 --> 01:25:36,080
molecular weight and it's a fingerprint

2494
01:25:39,350 --> 01:25:37,760
and the way that molecule works is the

2495
01:25:40,629 --> 01:25:39,360
way the commentary chemistry words that

2496
01:25:41,669 --> 01:25:40,639
molecule

2497
01:25:43,430 --> 01:25:41,679
is

2498
01:25:45,270 --> 01:25:43,440
beautiful it's like a rembrandt right

2499
01:25:47,669 --> 01:25:45,280
it's in its features

2500
01:25:49,350 --> 01:25:47,679
but chemists can make loads of it so you

2501
01:25:52,270 --> 01:25:49,360
can make literally

2502
01:25:55,830 --> 01:25:52,280
um 10 to the 23

2503
01:25:58,470 --> 01:25:55,840
6.022 times 10 to the 23 and that's one

2504
01:26:01,430 --> 01:25:58,480
mole so you have one mole of taxol so

2505
01:26:03,110 --> 01:26:01,440
that's 10 to the 23 identical copies and

2506
01:26:06,070 --> 01:26:03,120
that's made in biology on earth human

2507
01:26:07,669 --> 01:26:06,080
beings can make it in the lab but

2508
01:26:08,870 --> 01:26:07,679
if brian and i did the math together and

2509
01:26:10,790 --> 01:26:08,880
we said right we'll look at that

2510
01:26:13,750 --> 01:26:10,800
molecule we'll work out what is the

2511
01:26:16,390 --> 01:26:13,760
probability that that molecule

2512
01:26:17,910 --> 01:26:16,400
could form randomly in a plasma in the

2513
01:26:21,669 --> 01:26:17,920
universe

2514
01:26:25,030 --> 01:26:21,679
it's basically one in a like

2515
01:26:27,510 --> 01:26:25,040
countless in 10 100 right maybe more

2516
01:26:30,550 --> 01:26:27,520
that's just for one molecule so if you

2517
01:26:32,229 --> 01:26:30,560
find a detectable amount you're like oh

2518
01:26:34,390 --> 01:26:32,239
oh my god this is like the biggest

2519
01:26:37,030 --> 01:26:34,400
coincidence ever so that's where

2520
01:26:38,390 --> 01:26:37,040
assembly theory was born and i realized

2521
01:26:40,709 --> 01:26:38,400
that there's lots of molecules on earth

2522
01:26:43,110 --> 01:26:40,719
that pass the great filter they are made

2523
01:26:45,669 --> 01:26:43,120
by biology and i realize they can make a

2524
01:26:47,110 --> 01:26:45,679
detection system that detects molecules

2525
01:26:49,189 --> 01:26:47,120
that are above that threshold of

2526
01:26:51,669 --> 01:26:49,199
complexity and that when you do random

2527
01:26:53,189 --> 01:26:51,679
miliuri and random stuff

2528
01:26:55,189 --> 01:26:53,199
get meteorites and look at the organic

2529
01:26:57,189 --> 01:26:55,199
chemistry they are way below that filter

2530
01:26:59,189 --> 01:26:57,199
they have an assembly number and what

2531
01:27:01,910 --> 01:26:59,199
assembly theory does it says like take

2532
01:27:03,510 --> 01:27:01,920
your molecule put it on a graph

2533
01:27:05,350 --> 01:27:03,520
what is the shortest route you can get

2534
01:27:08,149 --> 01:27:05,360
from your atoms to that target the

2535
01:27:09,669 --> 01:27:08,159
shortest possible route how many steps

2536
01:27:11,830 --> 01:27:09,679
right so it's a bit like you take the

2537
01:27:13,350 --> 01:27:11,840
word abracadabra if you were to make if

2538
01:27:16,870 --> 01:27:13,360
you've got a b

2539
01:27:17,990 --> 01:27:16,880
uh um you know c r a how many steps

2540
01:27:20,790 --> 01:27:18,000
would you need to make the word

2541
01:27:22,629 --> 01:27:20,800
abracadabra well you can do it in in a

2542
01:27:24,550 --> 01:27:22,639
much number the number of letters in the

2543
01:27:27,110 --> 01:27:24,560
in the word because you can reuse some

2544
01:27:28,790 --> 01:27:27,120
parts and so my conjecture is assembly

2545
01:27:31,430 --> 01:27:28,800
theory says he finds where there's

2546
01:27:34,629 --> 01:27:31,440
memory of contingency in a chain so it

2547
01:27:36,149 --> 01:27:34,639
looks for lossless compressibility

2548
01:27:38,709 --> 01:27:36,159
that's kind of cool right it's a bit

2549
01:27:39,669 --> 01:27:38,719
like a information theory compression

2550
01:27:40,870 --> 01:27:39,679
shannon

2551
01:27:43,189 --> 01:27:40,880
but it's just like that what is your

2552
01:27:44,790 --> 01:27:43,199
shortest route to get there because

2553
01:27:46,870 --> 01:27:44,800
like brian

2554
01:27:48,870 --> 01:27:46,880
i'm as an experimentalist the data is

2555
01:27:51,510 --> 01:27:48,880
more important than my feelings that's

2556
01:27:53,350 --> 01:27:51,520
right and so you know it's like yeah so

2557
01:27:56,229 --> 01:27:53,360
i'm like ben shapiro you just sounded

2558
01:27:58,870 --> 01:27:56,239
like ben shapiro for a second

2559
01:28:00,149 --> 01:27:58,880
yeah i love ben shapiro

2560
01:28:02,149 --> 01:28:00,159
and so

2561
01:28:03,430 --> 01:28:02,159
it's really important that we understand

2562
01:28:05,030 --> 01:28:03,440
that because

2563
01:28:06,870 --> 01:28:05,040
it work it's pervasive right where

2564
01:28:08,390 --> 01:28:06,880
people just think that and chemists

2565
01:28:09,750 --> 01:28:08,400
think that complex molecules this is

2566
01:28:10,950 --> 01:28:09,760
where the chemists

2567
01:28:12,390 --> 01:28:10,960
they're getting they're beginning to

2568
01:28:14,229 --> 01:28:12,400
change their view

2569
01:28:16,390 --> 01:28:14,239
and what i'm trying to say is that the

2570
01:28:18,550 --> 01:28:16,400
the chemists don't because they take it

2571
01:28:20,390 --> 01:28:18,560
for granted that there's complex

2572
01:28:22,950 --> 01:28:20,400
chemistry everyone saying hey guys it's

2573
01:28:24,709 --> 01:28:22,960
not just rna that's important atp is

2574
01:28:27,189 --> 01:28:24,719
important you know that's my that's my

2575
01:28:28,629 --> 01:28:27,199
joke lee i say you know in in economics

2576
01:28:30,870 --> 01:28:28,639
you know past performance is no

2577
01:28:32,390 --> 01:28:30,880
guarantee of future results it's like we

2578
01:28:33,510 --> 01:28:32,400
have past performance evidence here on

2579
01:28:36,070 --> 01:28:33,520
earth but

2580
01:28:37,910 --> 01:28:36,080
that's no guarantee so assembly theory

2581
01:28:39,750 --> 01:28:37,920
what it does it allows you given a

2582
01:28:42,550 --> 01:28:39,760
complex molecule you can work out the

2583
01:28:44,470 --> 01:28:42,560
likelihood it formed by chance and and

2584
01:28:46,629 --> 01:28:44,480
that i think is fairly irrefutable

2585
01:28:48,950 --> 01:28:46,639
although publishing that paper last year

2586
01:28:51,030 --> 01:28:48,960
took me six goes right i sent it to them

2587
01:28:52,870 --> 01:28:51,040
why do you think that is

2588
01:28:54,629 --> 01:28:52,880
well because well it took me i sense a

2589
01:28:56,870 --> 01:28:54,639
nature i almost got in right senate

2590
01:29:01,030 --> 01:28:56,880
nature i got three reports back

2591
01:29:04,310 --> 01:29:02,550
can't be right

2592
01:29:06,470 --> 01:29:04,320
so i wrote back and so they're nature

2593
01:29:07,990 --> 01:29:06,480
what do we do and i said well

2594
01:29:09,990 --> 01:29:08,000
we can ask the referee why it can't be

2595
01:29:11,510 --> 01:29:10,000
right so he said i'll do that there and

2596
01:29:12,790 --> 01:29:11,520
the referee could say the referee why

2597
01:29:14,070 --> 01:29:12,800
can't it be right and the referee said

2598
01:29:15,830 --> 01:29:14,080
in the second round

2599
01:29:17,590 --> 01:29:15,840
because it's impossible

2600
01:29:19,110 --> 01:29:17,600
we're like okay this is like i kid you

2601
01:29:20,790 --> 01:29:19,120
not right this is a conversation we had

2602
01:29:22,550 --> 01:29:20,800
with the editor i said but here's the

2603
01:29:25,030 --> 01:29:22,560
data are you saying we fabricated the

2604
01:29:26,629 --> 01:29:25,040
data and the referee just said it's

2605
01:29:28,629 --> 01:29:26,639
impossible

2606
01:29:31,270 --> 01:29:28,639
and we we went in this loop and what

2607
01:29:32,790 --> 01:29:31,280
actually happened is one of the referees

2608
01:29:34,390 --> 01:29:32,800
fabricated

2609
01:29:37,430 --> 01:29:34,400
a data

2610
01:29:39,189 --> 01:29:37,440
from a paper to assert that we couldn't

2611
01:29:41,030 --> 01:29:39,199
be right that's how desperate they were

2612
01:29:42,790 --> 01:29:41,040
i got the evidence right come back

2613
01:29:44,390 --> 01:29:42,800
they said in this paper it says that

2614
01:29:45,990 --> 01:29:44,400
complexity is important is already

2615
01:29:47,189 --> 01:29:46,000
present in outer space blah blah blah

2616
01:29:48,070 --> 01:29:47,199
blah

2617
01:29:56,149 --> 01:29:48,080
and

2618
01:29:58,550 --> 01:29:56,159
that the referee took the word complex

2619
01:30:00,390 --> 01:29:58,560
mixtures have been found in space and

2620
01:30:02,390 --> 01:30:00,400
changed it to complex molecules because

2621
01:30:05,030 --> 01:30:02,400
they were so believing the complex

2622
01:30:07,590 --> 01:30:05,040
molecules are a free lunch

2623
01:30:09,590 --> 01:30:07,600
um i then went to the fifth round to

2624
01:30:11,270 --> 01:30:09,600
review and the editor by this point was

2625
01:30:13,350 --> 01:30:11,280
like just like

2626
01:30:14,950 --> 01:30:13,360
go away we're not publishing i said no

2627
01:30:17,110 --> 01:30:14,960
we're gonna i believe in the rule of

2628
01:30:18,070 --> 01:30:17,120
peer review i'm answering all your

2629
01:30:20,070 --> 01:30:18,080
points

2630
01:30:22,149 --> 01:30:20,080
this is important it's important we

2631
01:30:23,910 --> 01:30:22,159
change people's views of complexity

2632
01:30:26,229 --> 01:30:23,920
because brian is on a really good side

2633
01:30:28,149 --> 01:30:26,239
we're saying hey i want the data i know

2634
01:30:29,590 --> 01:30:28,159
that nothing is for free and the chemist

2635
01:30:31,350 --> 01:30:29,600
in the middle saying everything is for

2636
01:30:32,950 --> 01:30:31,360
free complexity happens and i'm in the

2637
01:30:34,790 --> 01:30:32,960
middle saying no i can count it and

2638
01:30:36,470 --> 01:30:34,800
quantify and here it is what actually

2639
01:30:38,550 --> 01:30:36,480
happened it was rejected

2640
01:30:40,870 --> 01:30:38,560
right because of for i won't go into i

2641
01:30:43,350 --> 01:30:40,880
don't want to complain i'm a very lucky

2642
01:30:44,709 --> 01:30:43,360
um scientist i love doing the science i

2643
01:30:46,149 --> 01:30:44,719
just feel bad for the research group but

2644
01:30:48,149 --> 01:30:46,159
i got it published i published in nature

2645
01:30:52,870 --> 01:30:48,159
communications and that paper was

2646
01:30:54,790 --> 01:30:52,880
downloaded 27 000 times in five months

2647
01:30:56,310 --> 01:30:54,800
um because we presented the theory the

2648
01:30:57,910 --> 01:30:56,320
mass spec and all the evidence we had a

2649
01:30:59,910 --> 01:30:57,920
little meteorites we even got scottish

2650
01:31:01,350 --> 01:30:59,920
whiskey we proved that scottish whiskey

2651
01:31:03,750 --> 01:31:01,360
is evidence of life because there's

2652
01:31:05,750 --> 01:31:03,760
complexity in the peak right we show it

2653
01:31:09,189 --> 01:31:05,760
works so we know we can fingerprint life

2654
01:31:10,790 --> 01:31:09,199
on earth and molecules um and so it's

2655
01:31:12,070 --> 01:31:10,800
but we realized something more that

2656
01:31:14,070 --> 01:31:12,080
assembly theory is about just something

2657
01:31:16,070 --> 01:31:14,080
about molecules it's about

2658
01:31:17,590 --> 01:31:16,080
every time you have a step on your path

2659
01:31:18,950 --> 01:31:17,600
and you make a decision let's say you go

2660
01:31:21,110 --> 01:31:18,960
down the street you say i'm gonna go

2661
01:31:23,030 --> 01:31:21,120
left today you go left and say right i'm

2662
01:31:24,870 --> 01:31:23,040
gonna go left again then i'm gonna go

2663
01:31:27,270 --> 01:31:24,880
right and go left and right and you find

2664
01:31:29,270 --> 01:31:27,280
yourself in a very particular spot that

2665
01:31:30,550 --> 01:31:29,280
contingency is pretty on your history

2666
01:31:31,350 --> 01:31:30,560
right there's a lot of mathematics on

2667
01:31:37,669 --> 01:31:31,360
that

2668
01:31:38,870 --> 01:31:37,679
i haven't spoken to brian about it

2669
01:31:41,030 --> 01:31:38,880
because sarah and i are just finishing

2670
01:31:43,350 --> 01:31:41,040
the paper and oh my god it works and

2671
01:31:45,669 --> 01:31:43,360
what i mean by that i mean i can take a

2672
01:31:48,470 --> 01:31:45,679
kilogram of sand and calculate the

2673
01:31:50,870 --> 01:31:48,480
assembly of that kilogram of sand and i

2674
01:31:53,110 --> 01:31:50,880
can calculate take a kilogram of e coli

2675
01:31:55,350 --> 01:31:53,120
and calculate the assembly assembly is a

2676
01:31:57,350 --> 01:31:55,360
number like entropy

2677
01:31:59,270 --> 01:31:57,360
an entropy tells you the causal power of

2678
01:32:01,990 --> 01:31:59,280
the object and of course the causal

2679
01:32:04,149 --> 01:32:02,000
power of a kilogram of aquila of e coli

2680
01:32:06,870 --> 01:32:04,159
is vastly higher than the kilogram of

2681
01:32:09,510 --> 01:32:06,880
sand because the sound can do nothing so

2682
01:32:12,229 --> 01:32:09,520
what about the uh assembly of rule 38

2683
01:32:13,830 --> 01:32:12,239
wolfram's you know rule well and

2684
01:32:16,470 --> 01:32:13,840
you'll hear about this in a few weeks

2685
01:32:18,550 --> 01:32:16,480
maybe but the problem with that is that

2686
01:32:21,270 --> 01:32:18,560
is again a labeled system so rule 38

2687
01:32:24,070 --> 01:32:21,280
doesn't exist outside of a von neumann

2688
01:32:26,390 --> 01:32:24,080
machine and graph paper an observer

2689
01:32:28,390 --> 01:32:26,400
putting the rules in so yeah so there's

2690
01:32:31,189 --> 01:32:28,400
so the problem is and physicists get

2691
01:32:33,030 --> 01:32:31,199
stuck with things that give complexity

2692
01:32:35,030 --> 01:32:33,040
that aren't really complexity it's just

2693
01:32:36,870 --> 01:32:35,040
games with numbers

2694
01:32:38,629 --> 01:32:36,880
and and i think that i've got a little

2695
01:32:41,510 --> 01:32:38,639
bit of work to do with that and i think

2696
01:32:43,030 --> 01:32:41,520
the wolfram's ideas here are pretty cool

2697
01:32:45,590 --> 01:32:43,040
i think they're not they're not the

2698
01:32:47,590 --> 01:32:45,600
problem is with wolfram he traps himself

2699
01:32:49,669 --> 01:32:47,600
in a line of thought and doesn't talk to

2700
01:32:51,270 --> 01:32:49,679
anyone and think he's the lost genius

2701
01:32:52,790 --> 01:32:51,280
bit like eric actually and no one will

2702
01:32:54,629 --> 01:32:52,800
talk to him we'll talk to him in fact

2703
01:32:56,709 --> 01:32:54,639
he's got a lot of good ideas that might

2704
01:32:58,550 --> 01:32:56,719
actually be right but it's up

2705
01:32:59,910 --> 01:32:58,560
i've had not only have i talked to him

2706
01:33:01,590 --> 01:32:59,920
and i've talked to eric i've talked to

2707
01:33:03,030 --> 01:33:01,600
him and eric at the same time i'm like

2708
01:33:04,470 --> 01:33:03,040
oh cool i'd love to take part in that

2709
01:33:06,470 --> 01:33:04,480
conversation if i maybe could bang their

2710
01:33:07,990 --> 01:33:06,480
heads together

2711
01:33:10,470 --> 01:33:08,000
assembly theory tells you about

2712
01:33:11,750 --> 01:33:10,480
causation it's now measurable and that's

2713
01:33:13,350 --> 01:33:11,760
why i'm excited because we're going to

2714
01:33:15,750 --> 01:33:13,360
start to roll this out

2715
01:33:18,870 --> 01:33:15,760
in in inanimate objects and it will help

2716
01:33:20,070 --> 01:33:18,880
physics i think newton screwed physics

2717
01:33:21,830 --> 01:33:20,080
because screw

2718
01:33:23,669 --> 01:33:21,840
n newton and there's a hell of a thing

2719
01:33:25,590 --> 01:33:23,679
to say i'm british right i love newton

2720
01:33:27,910 --> 01:33:25,600
you know there's a lot of coins and on

2721
01:33:30,550 --> 01:33:27,920
our notes and everything but leibniz

2722
01:33:32,229 --> 01:33:30,560
understood assembly theory and i've been

2723
01:33:34,390 --> 01:33:32,239
reading philosophy for the last few

2724
01:33:37,430 --> 01:33:34,400
weeks if you read the monodology from

2725
01:33:39,270 --> 01:33:37,440
leibniz you'll see that he understood

2726
01:33:40,550 --> 01:33:39,280
assembly theory and that objects have

2727
01:33:42,950 --> 01:33:40,560
souls

2728
01:33:44,709 --> 01:33:42,960
this cup has a soul and you're like you

2729
01:33:47,590 --> 01:33:44,719
can use legal on or pants i can say no

2730
01:33:49,430 --> 01:33:47,600
no the soul is not in the cup but it's

2731
01:33:51,669 --> 01:33:49,440
in the causal structure of the person

2732
01:33:54,229 --> 01:33:51,679
that made it who made it who made it who

2733
01:33:56,390 --> 01:33:54,239
made it this cup is a fantastically

2734
01:33:58,550 --> 01:33:56,400
improbable object that cannot have

2735
01:34:00,390 --> 01:33:58,560
existed at a long line

2736
01:34:02,390 --> 01:34:00,400
of cup makers

2737
01:34:04,390 --> 01:34:02,400
that's where the soul of the cup is okay

2738
01:34:05,189 --> 01:34:04,400
let's let brian respond to what you've

2739
01:34:06,629 --> 01:34:05,199
said

2740
01:34:08,229 --> 01:34:06,639
well you know i think i mean it's

2741
01:34:11,030 --> 01:34:08,239
unassailable to say that you know

2742
01:34:13,189 --> 01:34:11,040
complexity begets complexity and again

2743
01:34:15,350 --> 01:34:13,199
that lee will take on intelligent

2744
01:34:17,510 --> 01:34:15,360
designers with one fist but he'll also

2745
01:34:20,390 --> 01:34:17,520
you know take on chemists uh with the

2746
01:34:22,229 --> 01:34:20,400
other and say look we we have to address

2747
01:34:24,470 --> 01:34:22,239
you know as as uh

2748
01:34:26,550 --> 01:34:24,480
as uh you know roger penrose calls the

2749
01:34:29,189 --> 01:34:26,560
mastodon in the room which is you know

2750
01:34:30,790 --> 01:34:29,199
this surprising you know uh feature

2751
01:34:33,350 --> 01:34:30,800
about the universe that we can

2752
01:34:34,950 --> 01:34:33,360
comprehend it we tend to impose you know

2753
01:34:37,430 --> 01:34:34,960
consciousness upon it and our

2754
01:34:40,149 --> 01:34:37,440
definitions our contingent upon our

2755
01:34:42,149 --> 01:34:40,159
causal history and how we were assembled

2756
01:34:44,149 --> 01:34:42,159
you know and i think the ultimate theory

2757
01:34:45,990 --> 01:34:44,159
of everything when it comes to uh what

2758
01:34:48,709 --> 01:34:46,000
lee's working on will have to involve

2759
01:34:50,229 --> 01:34:48,719
the observer which will undoubtedly then

2760
01:34:52,149 --> 01:34:50,239
finally force him to get into

2761
01:34:53,189 --> 01:34:52,159
fundamentals of of quantum mechanics

2762
01:34:54,950 --> 01:34:53,199
which i don't think he can call

2763
01:34:56,310 --> 01:34:54,960
chemistry i'm okay with you calling you

2764
01:34:58,149 --> 01:34:56,320
know entropy and thermodynamics

2765
01:34:59,430 --> 01:34:58,159
chemistry but i think you know the

2766
01:35:01,270 --> 01:34:59,440
elementary foundations of quantum

2767
01:35:03,189 --> 01:35:01,280
mechanics that's a stretch i've always

2768
01:35:05,270 --> 01:35:03,199
wanted to be a physicist that's okay

2769
01:35:07,350 --> 01:35:05,280
okay yeah well me too but you know i i

2770
01:35:09,270 --> 01:35:07,360
lapsed and became an astrophysicist

2771
01:35:11,830 --> 01:35:09,280
but i think um

2772
01:35:14,629 --> 01:35:11,840
you know when we talk about how uh you

2773
01:35:15,590 --> 01:35:14,639
know this this can be used to to kind of

2774
01:35:17,830 --> 01:35:15,600
um

2775
01:35:19,430 --> 01:35:17,840
as i say be quantitative how we can get

2776
01:35:21,990 --> 01:35:19,440
something out of it deliver some value

2777
01:35:23,910 --> 01:35:22,000
to the audience uh certainly these are

2778
01:35:25,590 --> 01:35:23,920
and the last the more flexible we are i

2779
01:35:28,310 --> 01:35:25,600
think the more can be understood but

2780
01:35:30,070 --> 01:35:28,320
maybe maybe to even narrow down and come

2781
01:35:32,390 --> 01:35:30,080
back to the original definition of

2782
01:35:33,990 --> 01:35:32,400
things i think to have a taxonomy you

2783
01:35:35,990 --> 01:35:34,000
know what what is it that the the name

2784
01:35:38,790 --> 01:35:36,000
is not the thing uh there's there's some

2785
01:35:40,950 --> 01:35:38,800
principle like that right um and so so

2786
01:35:44,070 --> 01:35:40,960
yes describing things that are complex

2787
01:35:45,590 --> 01:35:44,080
and are have originators in a mind that

2788
01:35:48,550 --> 01:35:45,600
on the one hand is beautiful it's

2789
01:35:50,470 --> 01:35:48,560
elegant it's it's simple and again in a

2790
01:35:52,709 --> 01:35:50,480
in a praiseworthy fashion not in a

2791
01:35:54,870 --> 01:35:52,719
childless fashion on the other hand i do

2792
01:35:56,870 --> 01:35:54,880
think we have to then confront the

2793
01:35:58,790 --> 01:35:56,880
ultimate you know question of you know

2794
01:36:01,910 --> 01:35:58,800
is there does there have to be some mind

2795
01:36:05,750 --> 01:36:01,920
at work behind the cup behind the 747

2796
01:36:08,070 --> 01:36:05,760
behind the uh the the dna code and i i

2797
01:36:10,390 --> 01:36:08,080
think we know we've agreed not to really

2798
01:36:12,870 --> 01:36:10,400
get into this this notion but i think it

2799
01:36:14,870 --> 01:36:12,880
at some level we just get to this a a

2800
01:36:17,510 --> 01:36:14,880
eventual chicken or egg and this motte

2801
01:36:18,310 --> 01:36:17,520
bailey you know retreat and i guess you

2802
01:36:24,070 --> 01:36:18,320
know

2803
01:36:26,950 --> 01:36:24,080
the ultimate benefit of this approach is

2804
01:36:29,030 --> 01:36:26,960
is that it it gives a plausible scenario

2805
01:36:31,430 --> 01:36:29,040
for life to arise from inanimate objects

2806
01:36:33,270 --> 01:36:31,440
that's that's an ultimate it's a way to

2807
01:36:34,950 --> 01:36:33,280
quantify when something is animate let's

2808
01:36:36,790 --> 01:36:34,960
just say or was created by something

2809
01:36:39,189 --> 01:36:36,800
adamant um

2810
01:36:41,270 --> 01:36:39,199
and i think you know to look at how

2811
01:36:44,149 --> 01:36:41,280
we can do better and and maybe go

2812
01:36:46,390 --> 01:36:44,159
further into which i think is really

2813
01:36:48,550 --> 01:36:46,400
important uh you know is life abundant

2814
01:36:50,390 --> 01:36:48,560
and technological i think kurt's

2815
01:36:51,669 --> 01:36:50,400
audience appreciates that and i think

2816
01:36:54,310 --> 01:36:51,679
you know we haven't spoken so much about

2817
01:36:57,350 --> 01:36:54,320
that maybe we can talk about that um you

2818
01:36:59,830 --> 01:36:57,360
know how and what could we glean from

2819
01:37:01,350 --> 01:36:59,840
the search as a search you know and

2820
01:37:02,870 --> 01:37:01,360
where are we going qual vadas you know

2821
01:37:05,109 --> 01:37:02,880
where are we going with with the search

2822
01:37:07,430 --> 01:37:05,119
is it important is a good use of of

2823
01:37:10,229 --> 01:37:07,440
chemist's time of physicist time uh et

2824
01:37:12,709 --> 01:37:10,239
cetera to look at these uh reported

2825
01:37:13,910 --> 01:37:12,719
unexplained phenomena um can that tell

2826
01:37:16,310 --> 01:37:13,920
us something is this something that

2827
01:37:18,229 --> 01:37:16,320
interests you and and me and and maybe

2828
01:37:20,950 --> 01:37:18,239
you know kurt can can lead us in that

2829
01:37:22,550 --> 01:37:20,960
path and and kind of yeah really i mean

2830
01:37:24,550 --> 01:37:22,560
we're at a very interesting you know

2831
01:37:26,229 --> 01:37:24,560
point in time and a lot of it has to do

2832
01:37:27,669 --> 01:37:26,239
with people that kurt's had on the show

2833
01:37:30,390 --> 01:37:27,679
and that i've tried to have on my

2834
01:37:32,470 --> 01:37:30,400
podcast as well um and i think that you

2835
01:37:34,629 --> 01:37:32,480
know kind of the abiogenesis

2836
01:37:37,109 --> 01:37:34,639
argument is is you know you've

2837
01:37:38,790 --> 01:37:37,119
eloquently described it um i think you

2838
01:37:40,950 --> 01:37:38,800
know if we look maybe as curt as an

2839
01:37:42,310 --> 01:37:40,960
impartial observer maybe we could say

2840
01:37:43,430 --> 01:37:42,320
like where are you kurt in this

2841
01:37:46,149 --> 01:37:43,440
discussion because i think you're a

2842
01:37:48,390 --> 01:37:46,159
proxy for your everyday audience how do

2843
01:37:50,390 --> 01:37:48,400
we how are you feeling about the

2844
01:37:52,149 --> 01:37:50,400
prospects of the ultimate question

2845
01:37:54,070 --> 01:37:52,159
life from non-life and then we could

2846
01:37:55,510 --> 01:37:54,080
talk about universe from non-universe we

2847
01:37:57,109 --> 01:37:55,520
can talk about consciousness from

2848
01:37:58,390 --> 01:37:57,119
inanimate matter and then we can talk

2849
01:38:00,709 --> 01:37:58,400
about technological matter from

2850
01:38:03,510 --> 01:38:00,719
conscious matter but um where are you

2851
01:38:04,629 --> 01:38:03,520
sitting right now kurt

2852
01:38:07,270 --> 01:38:04,639
if we use

2853
01:38:09,510 --> 01:38:07,280
lee's definition of life which is

2854
01:38:11,669 --> 01:38:09,520
what begets some high assembly number

2855
01:38:12,870 --> 01:38:11,679
then it sounds like

2856
01:38:14,950 --> 01:38:12,880
it's almost like pan psychos and

2857
01:38:16,629 --> 01:38:14,960
pan-lifeism because it's a circular

2858
01:38:17,910 --> 01:38:16,639
definition of life where okay well what

2859
01:38:20,149 --> 01:38:17,920
would produce that well then we'd get

2860
01:38:21,350 --> 01:38:20,159
down to the atoms which produce and so

2861
01:38:23,109 --> 01:38:21,360
on and so on so it sounds like life is

2862
01:38:26,070 --> 01:38:23,119
abundant if we use the definition that

2863
01:38:27,910 --> 01:38:26,080
life is what produces life

2864
01:38:29,750 --> 01:38:27,920
let me qualify one second no so what i'm

2865
01:38:31,350 --> 01:38:29,760
saying is you have

2866
01:38:33,910 --> 01:38:31,360
random events

2867
01:38:36,550 --> 01:38:33,920
that basically um

2868
01:38:38,950 --> 01:38:36,560
increasing causal power and there's a

2869
01:38:40,470 --> 01:38:38,960
phase transition to life right life

2870
01:38:42,310 --> 01:38:40,480
doesn't just appear magically right

2871
01:38:43,669 --> 01:38:42,320
we've already there is but there's

2872
01:38:45,830 --> 01:38:43,679
causation in the universe right the

2873
01:38:47,669 --> 01:38:45,840
universe does do some stuff before life

2874
01:38:49,510 --> 01:38:47,679
there's a phase transition because then

2875
01:38:51,510 --> 01:38:49,520
evolution can do stuff

2876
01:38:53,510 --> 01:38:51,520
like that which is just you can and what

2877
01:38:55,590 --> 01:38:53,520
it what can and we there is a meaning to

2878
01:38:58,629 --> 01:38:55,600
this which we can come to it's not pan

2879
01:39:00,470 --> 01:38:58,639
psychism i totally refute well no let's

2880
01:39:02,149 --> 01:39:00,480
be friendly to the pan psychist because

2881
01:39:04,310 --> 01:39:02,159
there are interesting things there but i

2882
01:39:06,709 --> 01:39:04,320
think there's a mischaracterization

2883
01:39:09,189 --> 01:39:06,719
the pan psychists want something there

2884
01:39:11,109 --> 01:39:09,199
but i would argue they want causation

2885
01:39:12,950 --> 01:39:11,119
and they want and they're missing out on

2886
01:39:14,149 --> 01:39:12,960
causation so there's causations there

2887
01:39:16,550 --> 01:39:14,159
and then there's biology and then

2888
01:39:18,470 --> 01:39:16,560
there's technology so i'm i'm i don't

2889
01:39:19,990 --> 01:39:18,480
think it's circular but i think you're

2890
01:39:21,910 --> 01:39:20,000
really right to push on it because i

2891
01:39:23,830 --> 01:39:21,920
think your your listeners your viewers

2892
01:39:26,629 --> 01:39:23,840
will be like well come on it what do i

2893
01:39:28,229 --> 01:39:26,639
mean i mean rocks can

2894
01:39:30,149 --> 01:39:28,239
through their random interactions can

2895
01:39:31,669 --> 01:39:30,159
have memories and those memories just

2896
01:39:33,669 --> 01:39:31,679
randomly will be

2897
01:39:35,830 --> 01:39:33,679
um trapped in the causal chain which

2898
01:39:39,270 --> 01:39:35,840
will allow certain other processes to

2899
01:39:40,709 --> 01:39:39,280
occur it's not magic it's contingent

2900
01:39:43,430 --> 01:39:40,719
tell me if i'm understanding it

2901
01:39:46,229 --> 01:39:43,440
correctly it sounds like in your model

2902
01:39:48,629 --> 01:39:46,239
life is not binary it's not alive or

2903
01:39:50,310 --> 01:39:48,639
dead it's actually a continuous spectrum

2904
01:39:53,430 --> 01:39:50,320
and if that's the case then what i'm

2905
01:39:56,070 --> 01:39:53,440
saying that there is no zero to life

2906
01:39:58,390 --> 01:39:56,080
there's no zero i think life is a kind

2907
01:40:00,229 --> 01:39:58,400
of island right this is why we have so

2908
01:40:03,350 --> 01:40:00,239
difficult pinning it down the physics

2909
01:40:06,790 --> 01:40:03,360
it's like is this is my cup alive no was

2910
01:40:09,830 --> 01:40:06,800
my cup produced by life yes am i alive

2911
01:40:12,149 --> 01:40:09,840
yes i think so um you know

2912
01:40:14,790 --> 01:40:12,159
so this kind of this is a movable feast

2913
01:40:17,430 --> 01:40:14,800
in a way in the same way consciousness

2914
01:40:19,510 --> 01:40:17,440
is kind of we have more so agency we

2915
01:40:22,629 --> 01:40:19,520
have maximum agency in our bodies right

2916
01:40:24,149 --> 01:40:22,639
now but newton is still exerting agency

2917
01:40:25,830 --> 01:40:24,159
over all of us

2918
01:40:28,070 --> 01:40:25,840
because of what he did

2919
01:40:29,830 --> 01:40:28,080
that life form and it's kind of cool so

2920
01:40:31,510 --> 01:40:29,840
yes you're absolutely right i think life

2921
01:40:33,590 --> 01:40:31,520
is kind of a continuum and there's a

2922
01:40:35,750 --> 01:40:33,600
phase transition to you have there is

2923
01:40:37,350 --> 01:40:35,760
really a lot of causal power and you get

2924
01:40:38,950 --> 01:40:37,360
something special with that that faith

2925
01:40:40,870 --> 01:40:38,960
transition is an intuition at this point

2926
01:40:42,149 --> 01:40:40,880
is it formalized

2927
01:40:44,070 --> 01:40:42,159
we're formalizing it yeah and doing

2928
01:40:45,590 --> 01:40:44,080
experiments and i think that exactly

2929
01:40:46,790 --> 01:40:45,600
there's a nobel prize there the nobel

2930
01:40:48,790 --> 01:40:46,800
prize there's another pro i mean they're

2931
01:40:50,629 --> 01:40:48,800
like everywhere i mean let me talk about

2932
01:40:52,310 --> 01:40:50,639
your ufos if that's all right let me

2933
01:40:54,870 --> 01:40:52,320
just ask one more question sure just on

2934
01:40:56,550 --> 01:40:54,880
this if you have an assembly theory and

2935
01:40:59,750 --> 01:40:56,560
computation and all these wonderful

2936
01:41:01,910 --> 01:40:59,760
things um could you have a bs detector i

2937
01:41:03,669 --> 01:41:01,920
mean could you say you know now now you

2938
01:41:05,990 --> 01:41:03,679
feed in some um

2939
01:41:08,550 --> 01:41:06,000
some left-handed dna i think that's the

2940
01:41:10,709 --> 01:41:08,560
uh non-uh stereoisomer that occur

2941
01:41:11,430 --> 01:41:10,719
doesn't occur in life that we know about

2942
01:41:13,189 --> 01:41:11,440
so

2943
01:41:14,470 --> 01:41:13,199
look what i found you know would this

2944
01:41:16,470 --> 01:41:14,480
then tell you

2945
01:41:18,470 --> 01:41:16,480
that there there's this there's some

2946
01:41:19,750 --> 01:41:18,480
trickery and some jiggery pokery as you

2947
01:41:21,590 --> 01:41:19,760
say i mean

2948
01:41:24,070 --> 01:41:21,600
could it tell that this is not and is

2949
01:41:26,790 --> 01:41:24,080
that instantiated by you lee did you put

2950
01:41:28,709 --> 01:41:26,800
in if you see a left-handed dna helix

2951
01:41:31,109 --> 01:41:28,719
you know the guy is a fraud you know

2952
01:41:31,830 --> 01:41:31,119
tell me how does that how would

2953
01:41:34,050 --> 01:41:31,840
it's a that be

2954
01:41:35,750 --> 01:41:34,060
of asking about the lab league theory

2955
01:41:37,109 --> 01:41:35,760
[Laughter]

2956
01:41:38,870 --> 01:41:37,119
well

2957
01:41:41,109 --> 01:41:38,880
actually um it's not cheeky it's

2958
01:41:42,870 --> 01:41:41,119
actually entirely appropriate so i'll

2959
01:41:46,790 --> 01:41:42,880
but maybe we don't need to go down there

2960
01:41:50,870 --> 01:41:49,030
okay good um

2961
01:41:52,550 --> 01:41:50,880
i use assembly theory a very crude

2962
01:41:55,270 --> 01:41:52,560
version to show

2963
01:41:58,550 --> 01:41:55,280
some plagiarism so because because

2964
01:41:59,669 --> 01:41:58,560
plagiarism is the ultimate um

2965
01:42:03,109 --> 01:41:59,679
kind of you know

2966
01:42:04,629 --> 01:42:03,119
commendation right and when melina trump

2967
01:42:06,709 --> 01:42:04,639
gave her

2968
01:42:07,990 --> 01:42:06,719
presentation to the cup republican

2969
01:42:10,629 --> 01:42:08,000
convention

2970
01:42:12,870 --> 01:42:10,639
she used a speech which was the same as

2971
01:42:14,070 --> 01:42:12,880
michelle obama's speech

2972
01:42:15,750 --> 01:42:14,080
and everyone's like they look the same

2973
01:42:17,750 --> 01:42:15,760
and i was like oh well let's take all

2974
01:42:19,910 --> 01:42:17,760
the subjects of the sentences and i

2975
01:42:22,790 --> 01:42:19,920
broke them down and with assembly theory

2976
01:42:25,270 --> 01:42:22,800
be like you know um on number one i

2977
01:42:27,109 --> 01:42:25,280
talked about my you know my my mom my my

2978
01:42:28,790 --> 01:42:27,119
country and number two i talked about my

2979
01:42:30,229 --> 01:42:28,800
childhood number three i talked about my

2980
01:42:31,669 --> 01:42:30,239
dog number three you know you went

2981
01:42:34,629 --> 01:42:31,679
through and went wow when i by the time

2982
01:42:37,109 --> 01:42:34,639
i got to 14 and a match i knew that that

2983
01:42:39,030 --> 01:42:37,119
was plagiarism right because the the

2984
01:42:41,590 --> 01:42:39,040
chances of that

2985
01:42:43,189 --> 01:42:41,600
not being was like you know 14 factorial

2986
01:42:45,430 --> 01:42:43,199
or something right so it was kind of

2987
01:42:47,270 --> 01:42:45,440
cool it's like yeah so so you can use it

2988
01:42:49,430 --> 01:42:47,280
as a bs detector

2989
01:42:51,750 --> 01:42:49,440
and and yes you can use it to look for

2990
01:42:53,030 --> 01:42:51,760
genetic material and look for motifs

2991
01:42:54,950 --> 01:42:53,040
that are repeating

2992
01:42:56,950 --> 01:42:54,960
and and then you can see what

2993
01:42:58,709 --> 01:42:56,960
engineering has been done and what

2994
01:43:01,430 --> 01:42:58,719
evolution has done and it should be

2995
01:43:03,430 --> 01:43:01,440
possible to get get that because entropy

2996
01:43:06,229 --> 01:43:03,440
course grains it all out assembly

2997
01:43:07,590 --> 01:43:06,239
reassembles it okay so now the next

2998
01:43:09,109 --> 01:43:07,600
question will dovetail into what kurt

2999
01:43:11,590 --> 01:43:09,119
was just about to ask which is could

3000
01:43:13,990 --> 01:43:11,600
there be an analog of assembly theory to

3001
01:43:16,149 --> 01:43:14,000
apply to unidentified aerial phenomena

3002
01:43:18,310 --> 01:43:16,159
kurt is that is that okay to ask

3003
01:43:20,149 --> 01:43:18,320
sure i'd also like to explain re-explain

3004
01:43:21,430 --> 01:43:20,159
if you don't mind myself to the audience

3005
01:43:23,189 --> 01:43:21,440
and then you can correct my explanation

3006
01:43:24,390 --> 01:43:23,199
of assembly theory because it's

3007
01:43:25,189 --> 01:43:24,400
extremely important

3008
01:43:27,750 --> 01:43:25,199
so

3009
01:43:29,830 --> 01:43:27,760
lee cronin has a number it's almost like

3010
01:43:30,629 --> 01:43:29,840
kolmogorov complexity so those of you

3011
01:43:32,390 --> 01:43:30,639
who know what that is there are

3012
01:43:34,629 --> 01:43:32,400
different forms of

3013
01:43:37,430 --> 01:43:34,639
of putting a number to a piece of

3014
01:43:39,109 --> 01:43:37,440
information to see how complex it is

3015
01:43:40,470 --> 01:43:39,119
and what you have in lee's theory is you

3016
01:43:42,310 --> 01:43:40,480
have elements that you consider to be

3017
01:43:44,229 --> 01:43:42,320
atomic so you can consider those to be

3018
01:43:45,590 --> 01:43:44,239
axioms and then you have certain rules

3019
01:43:47,669 --> 01:43:45,600
of inference now those rules of

3020
01:43:48,709 --> 01:43:47,679
inference are like the laws of physics

3021
01:43:50,229 --> 01:43:48,719
though this can also be applied to

3022
01:43:51,430 --> 01:43:50,239
mathematics and that's why i think it's

3023
01:43:53,430 --> 01:43:51,440
extremely interesting because you can

3024
01:43:55,750 --> 01:43:53,440
quantify how difficult a formula is to

3025
01:43:56,950 --> 01:43:55,760
prove anyway so you have you have atoms

3026
01:43:58,070 --> 01:43:56,960
and then you have rules of inference and

3027
01:43:59,590 --> 01:43:58,080
then you wonder what is the minimum

3028
01:44:01,830 --> 01:43:59,600
amount of steps to get from the axioms

3029
01:44:04,149 --> 01:44:01,840
to the stated formula so for example the

3030
01:44:05,750 --> 01:44:04,159
word candy if we consider the letters of

3031
01:44:07,430 --> 01:44:05,760
the alphabet to be atomic then the word

3032
01:44:08,870 --> 01:44:07,440
candies complexity is five so you think

3033
01:44:10,709 --> 01:44:08,880
well that makes sense it's five letters

3034
01:44:12,629 --> 01:44:10,719
yeah because step one you pull c out

3035
01:44:15,590 --> 01:44:12,639
step two you pull an a out but the word

3036
01:44:18,310 --> 01:44:15,600
pom-poms which is seven letters is

3037
01:44:20,550 --> 01:44:18,320
complexity of five because you p okay

3038
01:44:22,629 --> 01:44:20,560
you pull a p out that's step one pull an

3039
01:44:24,709 --> 01:44:22,639
o out pull an m out then you need to put

3040
01:44:26,950 --> 01:44:24,719
another p but great we have the word

3041
01:44:28,950 --> 01:44:26,960
palm already created so that's that step

3042
01:44:30,629 --> 01:44:28,960
is taken care of by simply duplicating

3043
01:44:32,629 --> 01:44:30,639
the palm so then we have another step

3044
01:44:34,709 --> 01:44:32,639
for the s so then that's five in total

3045
01:44:36,629 --> 01:44:34,719
now is that a correct summation okay

3046
01:44:38,790 --> 01:44:36,639
yeah yeah you'll hive

3047
01:44:41,430 --> 01:44:38,800
great you're great okay and and the

3048
01:44:43,590 --> 01:44:41,440
reason this is extremely fascinating is

3049
01:44:46,550 --> 01:44:43,600
because you can use certain instruments

3050
01:44:49,669 --> 01:44:46,560
like mass spectrometry potentially to

3051
01:44:51,910 --> 01:44:49,679
assess the complexity of far away

3052
01:44:54,070 --> 01:44:51,920
molecules and then you can see well look

3053
01:44:55,270 --> 01:44:54,080
h2o maybe has a complexity of four i

3054
01:44:57,350 --> 01:44:55,280
don't know maybe five whatever it

3055
01:45:00,550 --> 01:44:57,360
doesn't matter two hydrogen one oxygen

3056
01:45:02,629 --> 01:45:00,560
but a simple protein may have 400 steps

3057
01:45:04,550 --> 01:45:02,639
a simple protein and thus if you can

3058
01:45:06,070 --> 01:45:04,560
quantify by looking through a telescope

3059
01:45:07,590 --> 01:45:06,080
the complexity of something far away

3060
01:45:09,990 --> 01:45:07,600
then perhaps you can say well it was

3061
01:45:11,189 --> 01:45:10,000
produced by life is that correct

3062
01:45:12,310 --> 01:45:11,199
yeah yeah i can tell you something quick

3063
01:45:14,550 --> 01:45:12,320
and blow your mind don't have to use a

3064
01:45:16,910 --> 01:45:14,560
mass spec and use infrared so i came up

3065
01:45:19,510 --> 01:45:16,920
with a the brianal like this a

3066
01:45:21,669 --> 01:45:19,520
non-gravitationally lensing complexity

3067
01:45:23,990 --> 01:45:21,679
cloak what the is that well sorry

3068
01:45:25,990 --> 01:45:24,000
for swearing um so you know black holes

3069
01:45:28,629 --> 01:45:26,000
are black holes but if you could make an

3070
01:45:30,790 --> 01:45:28,639
object that would basically so

3071
01:45:33,189 --> 01:45:30,800
in the infrared um

3072
01:45:35,430 --> 01:45:33,199
infrared uh radiation gets absorbed at

3073
01:45:37,669 --> 01:45:35,440
specific lines well all radiation gets

3074
01:45:39,590 --> 01:45:37,679
specific lines um but i came up with a

3075
01:45:41,189 --> 01:45:39,600
way of making molecules to store binary

3076
01:45:43,270 --> 01:45:41,199
coding because i want to leave a message

3077
01:45:44,470 --> 01:45:43,280
for some aliens when the humanity is

3078
01:45:46,470 --> 01:45:44,480
about to end and put it in the

3079
01:45:48,149 --> 01:45:46,480
atmosphere and what you could do is you

3080
01:45:49,430 --> 01:45:48,159
have these like if you're able to say

3081
01:45:50,870 --> 01:45:49,440
right i've got all this spectrum and i

3082
01:45:53,030 --> 01:45:50,880
want to cover all of it i'm going to

3083
01:45:54,790 --> 01:45:53,040
design a molecule absorbs here here here

3084
01:45:56,470 --> 01:45:54,800
here here here here

3085
01:45:58,070 --> 01:45:56,480
and i'll make it super light

3086
01:45:59,910 --> 01:45:58,080
there might be objects in the universe

3087
01:46:02,390 --> 01:45:59,920
that are non-gravitational lens in

3088
01:46:04,149 --> 01:46:02,400
complexity cloaks because they're light

3089
01:46:05,910 --> 01:46:04,159
and they can absorb all that energy

3090
01:46:08,149 --> 01:46:05,920
across and just re-radiate it to some

3091
01:46:10,629 --> 01:46:08,159
other way or be used so it's like a it's

3092
01:46:12,950 --> 01:46:10,639
kind of like a dyson sphere but it's

3093
01:46:15,590 --> 01:46:12,960
cooler because it's it's basically

3094
01:46:17,910 --> 01:46:15,600
really dark over everything

3095
01:46:19,590 --> 01:46:17,920
and and what am i saying the reason i

3096
01:46:21,430 --> 01:46:19,600
was saying this to you kurt not only was

3097
01:46:23,990 --> 01:46:21,440
your explanation spot on you're talking

3098
01:46:24,830 --> 01:46:24,000
about mass spec but you could also

3099
01:46:26,790 --> 01:46:24,840
use

3100
01:46:29,350 --> 01:46:26,800
infrared um

3101
01:46:32,870 --> 01:46:29,360
spectroscopy and a telescope to go and

3102
01:46:35,510 --> 01:46:32,880
look for not just life but technology

3103
01:46:37,510 --> 01:46:35,520
that basically is showing itself in the

3104
01:46:39,990 --> 01:46:37,520
in the infrared and uv and maybe x-ray

3105
01:46:42,870 --> 01:46:40,000
whatever

3106
01:46:44,390 --> 01:46:42,880
okay great now on to the ufo question

3107
01:46:46,310 --> 01:46:44,400
brian when you say that scientists have

3108
01:46:48,229 --> 01:46:46,320
an incentive to find life in the

3109
01:46:50,790 --> 01:46:48,239
universe in the sentence via nobel prize

3110
01:46:52,229 --> 01:46:50,800
in money etc i don't buy that per se i

3111
01:46:53,910 --> 01:46:52,239
think they have an incentive to find a

3112
01:46:55,910 --> 01:46:53,920
certain form of life in the universe but

3113
01:46:58,390 --> 01:46:55,920
not life in general and the reason is

3114
01:47:00,550 --> 01:46:58,400
that life in general borders on what is

3115
01:47:03,189 --> 01:47:00,560
considered to be woo or paranormal for

3116
01:47:04,950 --> 01:47:03,199
example if you were to study ufos and

3117
01:47:07,910 --> 01:47:04,960
say is there credibility to these

3118
01:47:09,669 --> 01:47:07,920
reports that's almost not done besides a

3119
01:47:10,950 --> 01:47:09,679
few individuals like kevin knuth for

3120
01:47:12,470 --> 01:47:10,960
example

3121
01:47:15,430 --> 01:47:12,480
because i

3122
01:47:16,870 --> 01:47:15,440
i think almost none of us i don't think

3123
01:47:18,629 --> 01:47:16,880
any of us are actually pursuing the

3124
01:47:20,310 --> 01:47:18,639
truth including myself which is why i

3125
01:47:22,390 --> 01:47:20,320
don't like when people say this channel

3126
01:47:23,990 --> 01:47:22,400
is for truth seekers almost none of us

3127
01:47:25,669 --> 01:47:24,000
care about the truth per se because the

3128
01:47:27,350 --> 01:47:25,679
truth can be extremely hard so we care

3129
01:47:29,270 --> 01:47:27,360
about it in a certain bounded fashion so

3130
01:47:31,510 --> 01:47:29,280
we also care about our reputations we

3131
01:47:33,350 --> 01:47:31,520
care about not sounding like these d in

3132
01:47:35,030 --> 01:47:33,360
sensate to cerebrate rednecks which is

3133
01:47:37,430 --> 01:47:35,040
what the people in the academy generally

3134
01:47:39,669 --> 01:47:37,440
think of those who who consider the ufo

3135
01:47:41,270 --> 01:47:39,679
reports to be real they they generally

3136
01:47:43,430 --> 01:47:41,280
consider them to and let's be honest

3137
01:47:45,350 --> 01:47:43,440
they consider them to be kooks and i

3138
01:47:47,430 --> 01:47:45,360
think that academics generally care much

3139
01:47:50,149 --> 01:47:47,440
more about either sounding intelligence

3140
01:47:51,669 --> 01:47:50,159
or not appearing to be inane

3141
01:47:52,470 --> 01:47:51,679
more than they care about the truth per

3142
01:47:54,229 --> 01:47:52,480
se

3143
01:47:55,350 --> 01:47:54,239
and so it's it's extremely bounded by

3144
01:47:59,830 --> 01:47:55,360
their

3145
01:48:02,790 --> 01:47:59,840
want to be ostracized it's anathema to

3146
01:48:05,109 --> 01:48:02,800
analyze ufo reports so that's why i say

3147
01:48:06,870 --> 01:48:05,119
i don't buy when

3148
01:48:08,390 --> 01:48:06,880
you say that well we have an extreme

3149
01:48:11,430 --> 01:48:08,400
incentive to find life in the universe a

3150
01:48:14,229 --> 01:48:11,440
certain type of life i agree

3151
01:48:16,229 --> 01:48:14,239
yeah well i think uh i think largely

3152
01:48:18,070 --> 01:48:16,239
that is accurate although i will say in

3153
01:48:19,910 --> 01:48:18,080
my defense you know i did join the

3154
01:48:21,430 --> 01:48:19,920
galileo project with our mutual friend

3155
01:48:22,950 --> 01:48:21,440
navi loeb

3156
01:48:25,109 --> 01:48:22,960
specifically for this reason not as a

3157
01:48:27,189 --> 01:48:25,119
researcher but as a member of the

3158
01:48:28,390 --> 01:48:27,199
external oversight board because i

3159
01:48:30,310 --> 01:48:28,400
actually don't think they need my help

3160
01:48:32,629 --> 01:48:30,320
as an observational astronomer i'm

3161
01:48:34,790 --> 01:48:32,639
pretty good but you know harvard is not

3162
01:48:36,310 --> 01:48:34,800
exactly hurting for for money and

3163
01:48:37,990 --> 01:48:36,320
you know they can certainly raise

3164
01:48:39,669 --> 01:48:38,000
funding especially when you have the you

3165
01:48:41,189 --> 01:48:39,679
know former uh chairman the

3166
01:48:42,950 --> 01:48:41,199
longest-serving chairman in harvard's

3167
01:48:44,790 --> 01:48:42,960
history in the astronomy department at

3168
01:48:46,709 --> 01:48:44,800
the helm who's you know joe rogan's

3169
01:48:48,790 --> 01:48:46,719
appearance blew up the internet and uh

3170
01:48:51,430 --> 01:48:48,800
has has uh you know number five

3171
01:48:52,709 --> 01:48:51,440
bestseller um you know last year in the

3172
01:48:54,149 --> 01:48:52,719
new york times list so i don't think

3173
01:48:55,910 --> 01:48:54,159
they need my help you know kind of

3174
01:48:57,750 --> 01:48:55,920
necessarily doing the research but i do

3175
01:48:59,669 --> 01:48:57,760
think they can always use help

3176
01:49:01,830 --> 01:48:59,679
uh holding them to account

3177
01:49:03,030 --> 01:49:01,840
and you know if i i told this to avi you

3178
01:49:04,790 --> 01:49:03,040
know i wouldn't have called it the

3179
01:49:08,229 --> 01:49:04,800
galileo project i think it's dangerous

3180
01:49:09,750 --> 01:49:08,239
when you know uh astronomers begin uh by

3181
01:49:12,070 --> 01:49:09,760
you know kind of bringing up the names

3182
01:49:13,590 --> 01:49:12,080
like bruno and and galileo and and

3183
01:49:14,950 --> 01:49:13,600
persecuted

3184
01:49:17,350 --> 01:49:14,960
figures in history i think that's a

3185
01:49:19,910 --> 01:49:17,360
fraught perilous endeavor and i think i

3186
01:49:22,229 --> 01:49:19,920
would be even that is sort of a be lying

3187
01:49:23,990 --> 01:49:22,239
a bias in other words his his claim is

3188
01:49:26,070 --> 01:49:24,000
that just like galileo

3189
01:49:28,149 --> 01:49:26,080
suffered from and the inability of the

3190
01:49:29,990 --> 01:49:28,159
powers that be the funding agencies of

3191
01:49:32,950 --> 01:49:30,000
this time the the

3192
01:49:34,870 --> 01:49:32,960
venetian dogens and senate and and other

3193
01:49:36,790 --> 01:49:34,880
agencies to at first look through in the

3194
01:49:39,270 --> 01:49:36,800
catholic church later on to look through

3195
01:49:40,629 --> 01:49:39,280
his telescope and and see for themselves

3196
01:49:42,310 --> 01:49:40,639
as if that would have proven anything i

3197
01:49:44,550 --> 01:49:42,320
mean just looking through a telescope

3198
01:49:46,390 --> 01:49:44,560
proves nothing it's the connection of

3199
01:49:49,350 --> 01:49:46,400
the human mind and the formulation of a

3200
01:49:51,030 --> 01:49:49,360
hypothesis and evidentiary data that

3201
01:49:53,669 --> 01:49:51,040
could disconfirm his hypothesis you know

3202
01:49:55,430 --> 01:49:53,679
galileo had many blunders kurt

3203
01:49:58,870 --> 01:49:55,440
i'm pleased and privileged to be working

3204
01:50:01,990 --> 01:49:58,880
with uh with uh jim gates carlo revelli

3205
01:50:04,070 --> 01:50:02,000
frank wilczyk fabiola giannatti and my

3206
01:50:06,310 --> 01:50:04,080
good friend from uh from uh graduate

3207
01:50:08,229 --> 01:50:06,320
school lucio picarillo on the first ever

3208
01:50:09,990 --> 01:50:08,239
audiobook version of any of galileo's

3209
01:50:11,109 --> 01:50:10,000
book and it's oh that's interesting and

3210
01:50:12,950 --> 01:50:11,119
i also didn't know that that was the

3211
01:50:14,149 --> 01:50:12,960
genesis of the word galileo in the

3212
01:50:15,590 --> 01:50:14,159
project i thought it just meant i'm

3213
01:50:16,550 --> 01:50:15,600
going to be looking out like galileo

3214
01:50:19,030 --> 01:50:16,560
looked down

3215
01:50:20,950 --> 01:50:19,040
no no i mean i i think the project's

3216
01:50:22,870 --> 01:50:20,960
really dangerous i'd like to kind of

3217
01:50:24,709 --> 01:50:22,880
push back on you i mean not push back

3218
01:50:26,629 --> 01:50:24,719
i'd like to reassure you i mean i can't

3219
01:50:28,550 --> 01:50:26,639
speak for brian just a second just a

3220
01:50:30,229 --> 01:50:28,560
second lee i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i

3221
01:50:32,070 --> 01:50:30,239
just want brian to finish because i i

3222
01:50:33,830 --> 01:50:32,080
interrupted him and then so please

3223
01:50:36,709 --> 01:50:33,840
finish brian and then and then leave

3224
01:50:38,550 --> 01:50:36,719
kurt's used to me and throw up punch him

3225
01:50:40,070 --> 01:50:38,560
but uh so we're translating galileo's

3226
01:50:42,550 --> 01:50:40,080
book we have the rights to the first

3227
01:50:44,790 --> 01:50:42,560
ever audiobook for galileo uh with a

3228
01:50:46,310 --> 01:50:44,800
forward by einstein and uh that's read

3229
01:50:49,830 --> 01:50:46,320
by frank wilcheck winner of the nobel

3230
01:50:52,550 --> 01:50:49,840
prize in 2004 and jim gates so what does

3231
01:50:53,910 --> 01:50:52,560
it say it says galileo was wrote the the

3232
01:50:55,430 --> 01:50:53,920
the definitive treatise on the

3233
01:50:57,590 --> 01:50:55,440
scientific method on what you're

3234
01:50:59,189 --> 01:50:57,600
supposed to do with evidence etc etc and

3235
01:51:01,270 --> 01:50:59,199
yet in that very book he makes a

3236
01:51:03,910 --> 01:51:01,280
catastrophic confirmation blunder at the

3237
01:51:05,430 --> 01:51:03,920
very end on day four it's a trialog

3238
01:51:07,030 --> 01:51:05,440
between these three characters i'm one

3239
01:51:08,870 --> 01:51:07,040
of them carlo revelli's another one and

3240
01:51:11,430 --> 01:51:08,880
my friend lucio's the other and we go

3241
01:51:13,510 --> 01:51:11,440
about and we're trying to disprove uh uh

3242
01:51:16,310 --> 01:51:13,520
galileo's character salviati is trying

3243
01:51:18,070 --> 01:51:16,320
to disprove uh the uh the the

3244
01:51:20,950 --> 01:51:18,080
earth-centered notion of the universe

3245
01:51:23,189 --> 01:51:20,960
that's held by simplicio the simpleton

3246
01:51:24,790 --> 01:51:23,199
who is espousing the words of the pope

3247
01:51:26,550 --> 01:51:24,800
uh that the earth is the center of the

3248
01:51:28,870 --> 01:51:26,560
universe and then i'm playing segreto

3249
01:51:30,709 --> 01:51:28,880
the kind of knowledgeable lay person who

3250
01:51:32,870 --> 01:51:30,719
is interpreting between them and galilee

3251
01:51:34,390 --> 01:51:32,880
is a phenomenal writer but he goes

3252
01:51:36,070 --> 01:51:34,400
through and describes these things in

3253
01:51:38,149 --> 01:51:36,080
such loving detail that even i become

3254
01:51:40,790 --> 01:51:38,159
convinced when he goes about and says

3255
01:51:43,430 --> 01:51:40,800
that the tides on the earth are proof

3256
01:51:45,510 --> 01:51:43,440
that the earth is going around uh the

3257
01:51:46,790 --> 01:51:45,520
sun that's complete balderdash we know

3258
01:51:48,629 --> 01:51:46,800
that's not correct and it would take

3259
01:51:50,550 --> 01:51:48,639
newton to do it and his argument is very

3260
01:51:52,070 --> 01:51:50,560
simple and persuasive it uses data it

3261
01:51:54,470 --> 01:51:52,080
would have gotten accepted by nature

3262
01:51:56,790 --> 01:51:54,480
probably if nature had existed not like

3263
01:51:57,830 --> 01:51:56,800
you know lees travails um but his

3264
01:51:59,350 --> 01:51:57,840
argument is that you've got this you

3265
01:52:01,350 --> 01:51:59,360
know you've got this object that's going

3266
01:52:03,350 --> 01:52:01,360
around the sun here's the sun over here

3267
01:52:05,750 --> 01:52:03,360
and here we've got tides on the earth

3268
01:52:07,589 --> 01:52:05,760
and uh as it goes around the sun it

3269
01:52:09,990 --> 01:52:07,599
orbits and the tide sloshes around and

3270
01:52:11,510 --> 01:52:10,000
that's why we have ti it's totally wrong

3271
01:52:13,430 --> 01:52:11,520
the tides are caused by the lunar

3272
01:52:15,189 --> 01:52:13,440
gravitational force the tidal force

3273
01:52:16,950 --> 01:52:15,199
quadripolar moment of the lunar

3274
01:52:18,709 --> 01:52:16,960
gravitational force field nothing to do

3275
01:52:21,270 --> 01:52:18,719
with our motion around the sun really

3276
01:52:23,430 --> 01:52:21,280
and yet it's incredibly persuasive and

3277
01:52:25,350 --> 01:52:23,440
so if you took the lessons of absolute

3278
01:52:26,790 --> 01:52:25,360
objective history and you say like

3279
01:52:28,550 --> 01:52:26,800
should we have listened to galileo no

3280
01:52:29,990 --> 01:52:28,560
you'd throw out that book you throw it

3281
01:52:31,589 --> 01:52:30,000
out you say it's nonsense even though

3282
01:52:33,589 --> 01:52:31,599
that he brings up relativity for the

3283
01:52:35,109 --> 01:52:33,599
first time in human history the notion

3284
01:52:36,870 --> 01:52:35,119
of relative motion does not affect the

3285
01:52:38,709 --> 01:52:36,880
laws of nature which we now call lorentz

3286
01:52:40,470 --> 01:52:38,719
and variance these are foundational

3287
01:52:42,229 --> 01:52:40,480
things and yet the summary of the book

3288
01:52:43,910 --> 01:52:42,239
is totally wrong the conclusion of the

3289
01:52:45,910 --> 01:52:43,920
book is totally misproven and he didn't

3290
01:52:47,109 --> 01:52:45,920
use the best evidence in hand so look

3291
01:52:49,589 --> 01:52:47,119
for that coming soon hopefully on

3292
01:52:51,510 --> 01:52:49,599
galileo's birthday in february but

3293
01:52:53,589 --> 01:52:51,520
this is all to say when it comes to when

3294
01:52:54,950 --> 01:52:53,599
it comes to avi's project avi loeb's

3295
01:52:56,790 --> 01:52:54,960
project

3296
01:52:58,870 --> 01:52:56,800
i think they need oversight more than

3297
01:53:00,950 --> 01:52:58,880
they need my insight which is to say

3298
01:53:03,750 --> 01:53:00,960
that i think the the first reaction that

3299
01:53:05,430 --> 01:53:03,760
we have to have is skepticism because we

3300
01:53:07,350 --> 01:53:05,440
do want to believe i think if we all go

3301
01:53:08,950 --> 01:53:07,360
back to our 12 year old boys when we

3302
01:53:11,189 --> 01:53:08,960
were 12 year old boys forget about

3303
01:53:13,510 --> 01:53:11,199
funding and and i'm going to lose my my

3304
01:53:15,750 --> 01:53:13,520
my status as a chair professor or lee's

3305
01:53:17,350 --> 01:53:15,760
gonna lose no we're just little boys and

3306
01:53:19,510 --> 01:53:17,360
we're playing with that little pebble on

3307
01:53:21,510 --> 01:53:19,520
the beach like ninten said and we're

3308
01:53:23,669 --> 01:53:21,520
looking for a shinier pebble if we were

3309
01:53:25,589 --> 01:53:23,679
to discover that i mean it raises the

3310
01:53:28,149 --> 01:53:25,599
hair in the back of my neck that there

3311
01:53:29,910 --> 01:53:28,159
was extraterrestrial intelligence first

3312
01:53:31,109 --> 01:53:29,920
life you know i i have my misgivings

3313
01:53:32,229 --> 01:53:31,119
i've talked to lee about that we'll talk

3314
01:53:34,390 --> 01:53:32,239
about that some other but just about

3315
01:53:36,070 --> 01:53:34,400
slime mold on the planet enceladus or

3316
01:53:37,990 --> 01:53:36,080
the moon enceladus i don't think that

3317
01:53:39,910 --> 01:53:38,000
will make as big an impact as lee does

3318
01:53:41,910 --> 01:53:39,920
but let's leave that aside let's just

3319
01:53:44,070 --> 01:53:41,920
talk about ufos i

3320
01:53:46,229 --> 01:53:44,080
don't want to believe i want to have

3321
01:53:47,270 --> 01:53:46,239
evidence and i think if you if you bury

3322
01:53:49,189 --> 01:53:47,280
your head in the sand you won't get

3323
01:53:51,510 --> 01:53:49,199
evidence so i have to say

3324
01:53:53,990 --> 01:53:51,520
and i hope this is true of avi too uh

3325
01:53:55,589 --> 01:53:54,000
that we are kind of the boy the 12 year

3326
01:53:56,790 --> 01:53:55,599
old boys sitting on the on the bed not

3327
01:53:58,550 --> 01:53:56,800
being able to fall asleep at night

3328
01:54:00,310 --> 01:53:58,560
looking up at the stars we do want to

3329
01:54:02,470 --> 01:54:00,320
know the truth uh but we want to have

3330
01:54:05,030 --> 01:54:02,480
evidence for it as mature men as

3331
01:54:06,070 --> 01:54:05,040
scientists at this very moment so anyway

3332
01:54:07,669 --> 01:54:06,080
lee you were going to say you've got

3333
01:54:09,030 --> 01:54:07,679
some problems with with uh with the

3334
01:54:10,550 --> 01:54:09,040
project and i'm happy again i don't

3335
01:54:11,910 --> 01:54:10,560
speak for them i'm on their external

3336
01:54:14,149 --> 01:54:11,920
advisory committee i think it's

3337
01:54:15,750 --> 01:54:14,159
important to do but i am predisposed

3338
01:54:17,510 --> 01:54:15,760
it's like the bets that stephen hawking

3339
01:54:20,149 --> 01:54:17,520
used to make with kip thorne he would

3340
01:54:22,550 --> 01:54:20,159
bet against hawking radiation ever being

3341
01:54:24,550 --> 01:54:22,560
you know validated and uh so that if he

3342
01:54:26,229 --> 01:54:24,560
lost a bet you know he'd have the thrill

3343
01:54:27,430 --> 01:54:26,239
of intellectual superiority being

3344
01:54:29,830 --> 01:54:27,440
correct

3345
01:54:31,510 --> 01:54:29,840
uh so what say you lee

3346
01:54:33,270 --> 01:54:31,520
yeah i mean it's no big it's no big deal

3347
01:54:38,310 --> 01:54:33,280
i'm i think i'm i've got a lot of

3348
01:54:40,550 --> 01:54:38,320
sympathy for kurt's position or kind of

3349
01:54:43,510 --> 01:54:40,560
worry about where we are as scientists

3350
01:54:45,430 --> 01:54:43,520
look for ufos but i think that i know

3351
01:54:47,750 --> 01:54:45,440
avi very well he's great but he's

3352
01:54:49,830 --> 01:54:47,760
playing a very strange game here i would

3353
01:54:51,510 --> 01:54:49,840
like to say he's kind of saying oh the

3354
01:54:53,589 --> 01:54:51,520
scientific establishment's not ready for

3355
01:54:55,990 --> 01:54:53,599
this i'm a genuine conterian and i'm

3356
01:54:57,270 --> 01:54:56,000
just gonna i'm just gonna basically come

3357
01:54:59,589 --> 01:54:57,280
up with these things i'm being ignored

3358
01:55:01,669 --> 01:54:59,599
no he's just making stuff up all right

3359
01:55:04,149 --> 01:55:01,679
making stuff up what is he making up a

3360
01:55:06,550 --> 01:55:04,159
theo location with leah cronin and avilo

3361
01:55:08,229 --> 01:55:06,560
is about to be booked we got a plan

3362
01:55:09,910 --> 01:55:08,239
yeah so what i mean by he's making stuff

3363
01:55:12,629 --> 01:55:09,920
up he's making up a

3364
01:55:14,629 --> 01:55:12,639
false argument about um

3365
01:55:16,070 --> 01:55:14,639
that people are kind of you know when it

3366
01:55:18,149 --> 01:55:16,080
comes to this interstellar object that

3367
01:55:20,070 --> 01:55:18,159
came through and he was just he was

3368
01:55:22,709 --> 01:55:20,080
saying why it could be alien space junk

3369
01:55:25,990 --> 01:55:22,719
sure it could be all sorts of things but

3370
01:55:27,669 --> 01:55:26,000
it but we were trying to understand

3371
01:55:29,510 --> 01:55:27,679
what the characteristics of trajectory

3372
01:55:31,350 --> 01:55:29,520
were telling us so he's kind of making

3373
01:55:32,709 --> 01:55:31,360
up stories which are fine i don't mean

3374
01:55:34,229 --> 01:55:32,719
he's fabricating stuff i mean he's

3375
01:55:36,709 --> 01:55:34,239
saying a narrative

3376
01:55:38,870 --> 01:55:36,719
and i'm wondering why is he making that

3377
01:55:40,870 --> 01:55:38,880
narrative what does he have to gain

3378
01:55:43,189 --> 01:55:40,880
other than some kind of you know fame

3379
01:55:45,189 --> 01:55:43,199
and notoriety and i'm going to be

3380
01:55:46,950 --> 01:55:45,199
downtrodden by the establishment because

3381
01:55:48,950 --> 01:55:46,960
if i suddenly said to brian hey brian

3382
01:55:50,790 --> 01:55:48,960
we've just found wormholes i saw it over

3383
01:55:52,229 --> 01:55:50,800
there look wormhole over there wormhole

3384
01:55:53,830 --> 01:55:52,239
over there wormhole over there and and

3385
01:55:55,270 --> 01:55:53,840
then brian says lee you haven't got any

3386
01:55:56,390 --> 01:55:55,280
wormholes you just may you know you

3387
01:55:58,709 --> 01:55:56,400
haven't got any date and i'll be like

3388
01:56:00,310 --> 01:55:58,719
you're just beating me up big professor

3389
01:56:01,990 --> 01:56:00,320
you know and i think it's a bit like

3390
01:56:03,910 --> 01:56:02,000
this so well i i'm really glad that

3391
01:56:05,589 --> 01:56:03,920
brian that is kind of borderline ad

3392
01:56:08,790 --> 01:56:05,599
hominem lee i have to point that out i

3393
01:56:10,709 --> 01:56:08,800
mean i love avi i fight with avi but but

3394
01:56:12,470 --> 01:56:10,719
that seems like imputing his impugning

3395
01:56:14,149 --> 01:56:12,480
his character almost you can

3396
01:56:16,629 --> 01:56:14,159
disassociate yourself from it what i'm

3397
01:56:20,070 --> 01:56:16,639
trying to say to so it's not clipped out

3398
01:56:21,350 --> 01:56:20,080
of context is that i like the idea of

3399
01:56:23,030 --> 01:56:21,360
searching

3400
01:56:24,550 --> 01:56:23,040
but i there is this so what i'm trying

3401
01:56:26,629 --> 01:56:24,560
to say there's this cultural vibe going

3402
01:56:28,070 --> 01:56:26,639
on right now our culture is changing

3403
01:56:29,350 --> 01:56:28,080
people are asking questions what are

3404
01:56:31,750 --> 01:56:29,360
these things that the pentagon has

3405
01:56:32,950 --> 01:56:31,760
released what is the probability of us

3406
01:56:35,510 --> 01:56:32,960
this happening

3407
01:56:37,510 --> 01:56:35,520
and and i'm saying that we don't

3408
01:56:40,229 --> 01:56:37,520
we could play together i would love to

3409
01:56:41,589 --> 01:56:40,239
help avi be successful i it doesn't i

3410
01:56:43,589 --> 01:56:41,599
don't think it's a

3411
01:56:45,189 --> 01:56:43,599
we i don't think the establishment is

3412
01:56:47,669 --> 01:56:45,199
against him i don't think even i'm in

3413
01:56:50,550 --> 01:56:47,679
the establishment we genuinely want to

3414
01:56:51,750 --> 01:56:50,560
know and i do agree with you that there

3415
01:56:53,669 --> 01:56:51,760
is some

3416
01:56:55,510 --> 01:56:53,679
we are putting we could put our careers

3417
01:56:57,270 --> 01:56:55,520
on the line if we get it wrong but

3418
01:56:59,350 --> 01:56:57,280
actually in science you have become

3419
01:57:00,709 --> 01:56:59,360
better scientists the more you're wrong

3420
01:57:03,350 --> 01:57:00,719
and what i'm saying here is abby's

3421
01:57:05,109 --> 01:57:03,360
adopting an extreme viewpoint where he

3422
01:57:06,310 --> 01:57:05,119
may not allow himself to be wrong and

3423
01:57:07,910 --> 01:57:06,320
it's not an ad hominem not saying he's

3424
01:57:09,189 --> 01:57:07,920
anything bad i'm not saying he's doing

3425
01:57:11,109 --> 01:57:09,199
anything dishonest i'm saying he's

3426
01:57:12,709 --> 01:57:11,119
making a narrative well let's be precise

3427
01:57:14,550 --> 01:57:12,719
so i had him on my show

3428
01:57:16,550 --> 01:57:14,560
and it was a wonderful episode and this

3429
01:57:18,629 --> 01:57:16,560
is long before i decided to join

3430
01:57:21,109 --> 01:57:18,639
and i said avi i don't believe that you

3431
01:57:23,669 --> 01:57:21,119
believe this is real that this

3432
01:57:26,550 --> 01:57:23,679
is an extraterrestrial and he says

3433
01:57:29,430 --> 01:57:26,560
and i said because if you did you happen

3434
01:57:32,229 --> 01:57:29,440
to have access to a resource that's

3435
01:57:33,990 --> 01:57:32,239
highly complex has a lot of uh

3436
01:57:37,189 --> 01:57:34,000
has a lot of assembly behind it called

3437
01:57:39,589 --> 01:57:37,199
yuri milner who is a russian billionaire

3438
01:57:41,589 --> 01:57:39,599
and he's showered upon uh you the

3439
01:57:43,350 --> 01:57:41,599
potential as a leader of the

3440
01:57:45,030 --> 01:57:43,360
breakthrough starshot uh prize one of

3441
01:57:46,790 --> 01:57:45,040
the leaders uh there's tremendous

3442
01:57:48,870 --> 01:57:46,800
resource so instead of sending you know

3443
01:57:50,950 --> 01:57:48,880
ten to the fourth uh cell phone cameras

3444
01:57:53,189 --> 01:57:50,960
to proxima century b

3445
01:57:54,790 --> 01:57:53,199
why don't you send one of them at you

3446
01:57:56,070 --> 01:57:54,800
know not even half the speed of life not

3447
01:57:58,470 --> 01:57:56,080
even ten percent of the speed i'll just

3448
01:58:00,470 --> 01:57:58,480
you know three four percent and catch up

3449
01:58:01,910 --> 01:58:00,480
to omumu and you know what he said he

3450
01:58:03,510 --> 01:58:01,920
said no no we don't need to do that

3451
01:58:06,390 --> 01:58:03,520
because when ruben telescope which is

3452
01:58:08,229 --> 01:58:06,400
the vera rubin uh uh observatory in

3453
01:58:09,910 --> 01:58:08,239
chile which is going to be a phenomenal

3454
01:58:11,430 --> 01:58:09,920
instrument it's designed it was the

3455
01:58:12,629 --> 01:58:11,440
original name was the large-scale

3456
01:58:14,709 --> 01:58:12,639
synoptic

3457
01:58:16,709 --> 01:58:14,719
survey telescope to survey the whole sky

3458
01:58:18,629 --> 01:58:16,719
with a huge cadence very quickly looking

3459
01:58:20,229 --> 01:58:18,639
for objects that are anomalous that

3460
01:58:21,750 --> 01:58:20,239
could do and he says that's one of the

3461
01:58:23,589 --> 01:58:21,760
dream machines for discovering we

3462
01:58:25,589 --> 01:58:23,599
already discovered one of them using pan

3463
01:58:27,350 --> 01:58:25,599
stars on hawaii um so we're gonna

3464
01:58:29,030 --> 01:58:27,360
discover millions of these things i said

3465
01:58:31,430 --> 01:58:29,040
well avi you know i don't know if you

3466
01:58:33,030 --> 01:58:31,440
know about this but you know like uh you

3467
01:58:34,550 --> 01:58:33,040
know sometimes you know

3468
01:58:36,390 --> 01:58:34,560
things happen only once you know there's

3469
01:58:37,830 --> 01:58:36,400
an n of one problem that we talk about

3470
01:58:39,910 --> 01:58:37,840
and what if this yeah what if they are

3471
01:58:41,669 --> 01:58:39,920
abundant and what if there are forces

3472
01:58:43,030 --> 01:58:41,679
that conspire against in our solar

3473
01:58:45,350 --> 01:58:43,040
system just particularly not to the

3474
01:58:48,149 --> 01:58:45,360
cosmos to our solar system maybe the

3475
01:58:50,229 --> 01:58:48,159
lunar you know so tidal solar whatever

3476
01:58:52,070 --> 01:58:50,239
whatever it is um and it makes these

3477
01:58:53,830 --> 01:58:52,080
objects very very unlikely to ever be

3478
01:58:55,109 --> 01:58:53,840
seen again even though they're abundant

3479
01:58:57,270 --> 01:58:55,119
wouldn't you want to catch up to the

3480
01:58:59,350 --> 01:58:57,280
only one with all the resources you have

3481
01:59:00,870 --> 01:58:59,360
and he was sort of agnostic about it

3482
01:59:02,310 --> 01:59:00,880
that gave me some pause and that's one

3483
01:59:05,430 --> 01:59:02,320
of the things i'm going to push back on

3484
01:59:07,109 --> 01:59:05,440
as an external advisor but i i would you

3485
01:59:08,629 --> 01:59:07,119
know and i love you lee but but i don't

3486
01:59:11,510 --> 01:59:08,639
think he's doing it for fam i mean he

3487
01:59:13,830 --> 01:59:11,520
has an ego that's well known um he's he

3488
01:59:16,709 --> 01:59:13,840
has trouble controlling um you know

3489
01:59:17,910 --> 01:59:16,719
sometimes his passions for what he does

3490
01:59:19,350 --> 01:59:17,920
i think he's doing an incredible

3491
01:59:20,709 --> 01:59:19,360
valuable service but i just want to talk

3492
01:59:22,629 --> 01:59:20,719
about from the perspective as an

3493
01:59:25,030 --> 01:59:22,639
observational astronomer can

3494
01:59:26,709 --> 01:59:25,040
observational astronomers provide

3495
01:59:27,750 --> 01:59:26,719
information in the way that you've been

3496
01:59:30,070 --> 01:59:27,760
using it

3497
01:59:32,149 --> 01:59:30,080
about this phenomenon uh in other words

3498
01:59:34,470 --> 01:59:32,159
we survey the sky in all wavelength

3499
01:59:36,229 --> 01:59:34,480
bands 24 7 around the earth from

3500
01:59:38,870 --> 01:59:36,239
antarctica where i've been twice for two

3501
01:59:42,790 --> 01:59:38,880
months of my life uh and uh to the north

3502
01:59:45,109 --> 01:59:42,800
pole to space now we've got jwst um what

3503
01:59:45,910 --> 01:59:45,119
would it convince a believer

3504
01:59:48,470 --> 01:59:45,920
to

3505
01:59:50,470 --> 01:59:48,480
give up the uh the expectations in other

3506
01:59:52,470 --> 01:59:50,480
words carl sagan said lack of evidence

3507
01:59:54,470 --> 01:59:52,480
is not evidence of absence or absence of

3508
01:59:56,229 --> 01:59:54,480
evidence so we can't but we can't we

3509
01:59:58,070 --> 01:59:56,239
also have to admit we have conserved

3510
01:59:59,589 --> 01:59:58,080
resources and finite time which is the

3511
02:00:00,950 --> 01:59:59,599
most prominent of all reasons

3512
02:00:02,390 --> 02:00:00,960
let me just come in quickly so i

3513
02:00:04,629 --> 02:00:02,400
completely agree we're all characters

3514
02:00:06,870 --> 02:00:04,639
right and i know avid is great

3515
02:00:08,470 --> 02:00:06,880
all i'm trying to say is um we i want

3516
02:00:10,550 --> 02:00:08,480
him to help i want him to succeed so

3517
02:00:12,070 --> 02:00:10,560
exactly i think my the only thing i

3518
02:00:13,750 --> 02:00:12,080
would comment here say how can we help

3519
02:00:15,109 --> 02:00:13,760
you let's help let's help you do this

3520
02:00:17,589 --> 02:00:15,119
right whatever you think the narratives

3521
02:00:19,430 --> 02:00:17,599
are it's capturing the day i do think we

3522
02:00:21,510 --> 02:00:19,440
have a responsibility though and it's

3523
02:00:24,310 --> 02:00:21,520
not an ad holmen it is kind of a bit way

3524
02:00:27,270 --> 02:00:24,320
in this polarization in the time of

3525
02:00:29,830 --> 02:00:27,280
covet elections we do have a

3526
02:00:31,510 --> 02:00:29,840
responsibility for correctly framing the

3527
02:00:32,950 --> 02:00:31,520
arguments we're not leading people down

3528
02:00:34,470 --> 02:00:32,960
the guard up the garden path that's the

3529
02:00:36,310 --> 02:00:34,480
only point i'm getting at i mean being

3530
02:00:38,629 --> 02:00:36,320
too optimistic or being too high

3531
02:00:40,229 --> 02:00:38,639
salesman yeah exactly exactly that's all

3532
02:00:42,709 --> 02:00:40,239
i mean nothing else everything else is

3533
02:00:44,149 --> 02:00:42,719
good so what i would say to avi is like

3534
02:00:45,270 --> 02:00:44,159
how can we help you what i would say to

3535
02:00:46,470 --> 02:00:45,280
kurt it's like

3536
02:00:48,709 --> 02:00:46,480
what do you think

3537
02:00:50,310 --> 02:00:48,719
science science mainstream science is

3538
02:00:53,589 --> 02:00:50,320
doing enough of you're finding

3539
02:00:56,070 --> 02:00:53,599
frustrating because you know i'm i'm a

3540
02:00:57,430 --> 02:00:56,080
i'm a cheap scientist in the regard

3541
02:00:59,030 --> 02:00:57,440
i want to know why i'm in the universe i

3542
02:00:59,910 --> 02:00:59,040
want to know why i'm here i want to have

3543
02:01:01,589 --> 02:00:59,920
meaning

3544
02:01:03,270 --> 02:01:01,599
if there are aliens out there i want to

3545
02:01:05,270 --> 02:01:03,280
know it's not just the right type of

3546
02:01:09,350 --> 02:01:05,280
alien any will do me

3547
02:01:12,870 --> 02:01:11,189
getting meaning from science and meaning

3548
02:01:14,870 --> 02:01:12,880
from life in the universe that might

3549
02:01:16,870 --> 02:01:14,880
have to be a part two uh kirk but but

3550
02:01:18,470 --> 02:01:16,880
anyway yeah i know we both

3551
02:01:20,950 --> 02:01:18,480
want we want evidence right we don't

3552
02:01:22,550 --> 02:01:20,960
want to just you know just marginally

3553
02:01:24,550 --> 02:01:22,560
and we only have finite amount of time

3554
02:01:25,510 --> 02:01:24,560
and intellectual time but don't forget

3555
02:01:28,550 --> 02:01:25,520
you know

3556
02:01:29,830 --> 02:01:28,560
i can tell you from experience in a few

3557
02:01:31,270 --> 02:01:29,840
years you're going to have trouble

3558
02:01:34,550 --> 02:01:31,280
remembering your kids names and you know

3559
02:01:36,070 --> 02:01:34,560
hopefully you know uh that'll stop but

3560
02:01:39,189 --> 02:01:36,080
uh but but we only have so much time for

3561
02:01:41,990 --> 02:01:39,199
attention to pay attention to things of

3562
02:01:43,910 --> 02:01:42,000
of of great import to us so i i you know

3563
02:01:45,669 --> 02:01:43,920
i guess the the subject is what what

3564
02:01:47,589 --> 02:01:45,679
else should we be doing we being

3565
02:01:50,390 --> 02:01:47,599
astronomers avi's not going to build you

3566
02:01:52,149 --> 02:01:50,400
know a large hadron collider squared you

3567
02:01:53,830 --> 02:01:52,159
know look for uh inter-dimensional

3568
02:01:54,870 --> 02:01:53,840
aliens you know manipulating wormholes

3569
02:01:56,229 --> 02:01:54,880
to get here right he's he's an

3570
02:01:58,550 --> 02:01:56,239
astronomer he's a theorist by the way

3571
02:02:00,870 --> 02:01:58,560
he's not an observer so so i think he

3572
02:02:02,550 --> 02:02:00,880
needs help uh i think the the you know

3573
02:02:04,550 --> 02:02:02,560
having you involved you know from that

3574
02:02:07,030 --> 02:02:04,560
perspective but then how do we translate

3575
02:02:09,430 --> 02:02:07,040
the signatures from assembly from you

3576
02:02:11,109 --> 02:02:09,440
know can be how do we translate that

3577
02:02:12,870 --> 02:02:11,119
into an actionable metric that will

3578
02:02:13,990 --> 02:02:12,880
allow us to reduce our uncertainty

3579
02:02:15,669 --> 02:02:14,000
getting back to our rubric at the

3580
02:02:16,950 --> 02:02:15,679
beginning of this conversation

3581
02:02:18,870 --> 02:02:16,960
well let me answer

3582
02:02:21,669 --> 02:02:18,880
one direct thing i think we can do this

3583
02:02:22,870 --> 02:02:21,679
with image data and time series data and

3584
02:02:24,229 --> 02:02:22,880
one of the things that would be very

3585
02:02:26,390 --> 02:02:24,239
interesting is like if you take any

3586
02:02:28,229 --> 02:02:26,400
given image on its dimensionality and

3587
02:02:29,830 --> 02:02:28,239
let's say i mean kurt you've got

3588
02:02:32,629 --> 02:02:29,840
assembly in one second it's brilliant

3589
02:02:34,390 --> 02:02:32,639
right you can apply the same thing to

3590
02:02:36,390 --> 02:02:34,400
two dimensional images and also time

3591
02:02:39,589 --> 02:02:36,400
series images of course you have to

3592
02:02:41,270 --> 02:02:39,599
define your axioms precisely like when

3593
02:02:42,629 --> 02:02:41,280
you're looking at how this image image

3594
02:02:44,790 --> 02:02:42,639
can be created it's very rare you see

3595
02:02:46,070 --> 02:02:44,800
like a straight edge in nature it just

3596
02:02:48,550 --> 02:02:46,080
doesn't happen right so you're looking

3597
02:02:51,109 --> 02:02:48,560
for yeah i mean and so i i think that's

3598
02:02:52,709 --> 02:02:51,119
right and i i what i would say um

3599
02:02:54,310 --> 02:02:52,719
quickly is

3600
02:02:56,790 --> 02:02:54,320
i've looked at these pentagon images and

3601
02:02:58,790 --> 02:02:56,800
i spoke to someone who was responsible

3602
02:03:01,030 --> 02:02:58,800
for releasing some of them and i was

3603
02:03:02,550 --> 02:03:01,040
like are you just trying to basically

3604
02:03:04,070 --> 02:03:02,560
are you just were you bored one day or

3605
02:03:05,270 --> 02:03:04,080
did you need more funding or something

3606
02:03:07,750 --> 02:03:05,280
why did you do it they were like no

3607
02:03:09,669 --> 02:03:07,760
actually we genuinely think

3608
02:03:11,589 --> 02:03:09,679
public paid for this data in a way and

3609
02:03:13,350 --> 02:03:11,599
we're just throwing it out there so what

3610
02:03:14,870 --> 02:03:13,360
i when i try to get out of them what

3611
02:03:16,550 --> 02:03:14,880
they thought they wouldn't tell me so

3612
02:03:18,470 --> 02:03:16,560
what do you think of these images i mean

3613
02:03:20,470 --> 02:03:18,480
you must have i've looked at them i've

3614
02:03:22,950 --> 02:03:20,480
listened to people on podcasts on joe

3615
02:03:24,830 --> 02:03:22,960
rogan's podcast in particular and looked

3616
02:03:27,109 --> 02:03:24,840
at the data and there's all this

3617
02:03:28,470 --> 02:03:27,119
mischaracterization of different people

3618
02:03:30,550 --> 02:03:28,480
looking at different

3619
02:03:32,390 --> 02:03:30,560
data sets and saying things like there's

3620
02:03:35,270 --> 02:03:32,400
this object that i think brian you've

3621
02:03:37,589 --> 02:03:35,280
talked about this this this this uh this

3622
02:03:40,550 --> 02:03:37,599
tic-tac that went from supposedly you

3623
02:03:42,390 --> 02:03:40,560
know um very high up to 50 feet off the

3624
02:03:43,750 --> 02:03:42,400
ocean in like a second

3625
02:03:45,430 --> 02:03:43,760
um

3626
02:03:46,790 --> 02:03:45,440
but kurt you have a look at this data

3627
02:03:49,430 --> 02:03:46,800
what do you think of it do you think

3628
02:03:51,589 --> 02:03:49,440
it's compelling or or are you frustrated

3629
02:03:53,109 --> 02:03:51,599
about the quality or

3630
02:03:54,709 --> 02:03:53,119
what what is your opinion i think it's

3631
02:03:57,189 --> 02:03:54,719
sad that people

3632
02:03:58,390 --> 02:03:57,199
hold these as as evidence of ufos

3633
02:03:59,910 --> 02:03:58,400
because i don't think

3634
02:04:02,229 --> 02:03:59,920
they are necessarily i think that

3635
02:04:03,990 --> 02:04:02,239
they're extremely poor evidence and what

3636
02:04:05,589 --> 02:04:04,000
about sightings what about what about

3637
02:04:07,510 --> 02:04:05,599
eyewitnesses

3638
02:04:09,189 --> 02:04:07,520
that's why all of it has to be looked at

3639
02:04:10,870 --> 02:04:09,199
so when someone if someone is to tell me

3640
02:04:12,470 --> 02:04:10,880
that bigfoot exists and i ask for

3641
02:04:13,830 --> 02:04:12,480
footage and then they show me some

3642
02:04:15,990 --> 02:04:13,840
pixelated video i don't think that

3643
02:04:18,709 --> 02:04:16,000
that's great evidence for bigfoot now

3644
02:04:20,310 --> 02:04:18,719
that in tandem with a variety of stories

3645
02:04:22,790 --> 02:04:20,320
from people who we would think of as

3646
02:04:24,870 --> 02:04:22,800
credible in any other situation that in

3647
02:04:27,109 --> 02:04:24,880
tandem with let's say a rape trial we

3648
02:04:29,669 --> 02:04:27,119
would send someone to jail based on two

3649
02:04:31,910 --> 02:04:29,679
or three witness testimonies and yet we

3650
02:04:35,270 --> 02:04:31,920
have a team of people who are extremely

3651
02:04:37,189 --> 02:04:35,280
credible who testify to the strangeness

3652
02:04:39,189 --> 02:04:37,199
of this phenomenon and then we don't we

3653
02:04:40,790 --> 02:04:39,199
think well perhaps their eyes are

3654
02:04:42,550 --> 02:04:40,800
misleading them well i don't think

3655
02:04:44,310 --> 02:04:42,560
that's reasonable so i think it's

3656
02:04:46,149 --> 02:04:44,320
strange i don't find any single one of

3657
02:04:48,149 --> 02:04:46,159
the videos to be compelling i find the

3658
02:04:49,669 --> 02:04:48,159
set of videos to be somewhat compelling

3659
02:04:52,950 --> 02:04:49,679
that there's something strange happening

3660
02:04:55,189 --> 02:04:52,960
but i find the total set of i i'm

3661
02:04:57,109 --> 02:04:55,199
putting evidence in scare quotes here

3662
02:04:58,870 --> 02:04:57,119
evidence of ufos to be

3663
02:05:01,270 --> 02:04:58,880
interesting and i also don't believe

3664
02:05:03,669 --> 02:05:01,280
that we want to believe in ufos i know

3665
02:05:04,470 --> 02:05:03,679
that you said that brian i know

3666
02:05:05,589 --> 02:05:04,480
well

3667
02:05:07,589 --> 02:05:05,599
i want to believe in i want to have

3668
02:05:08,709 --> 02:05:07,599
evidence yeah yeah well you also

3669
02:05:10,550 --> 02:05:08,719
mentioned that we have this need to

3670
02:05:12,470 --> 02:05:10,560
believe in external life and i don't

3671
02:05:13,910 --> 02:05:12,480
think that's true for me personally i

3672
02:05:16,390 --> 02:05:13,920
hope that all of what's happening with

3673
02:05:18,470 --> 02:05:16,400
ufos is false well lee said something

3674
02:05:20,550 --> 02:05:18,480
sorry kurt well i'm just afraid of the

3675
02:05:22,390 --> 02:05:20,560
implications and i think that anyone who

3676
02:05:24,149 --> 02:05:22,400
seriously thinks about this perhaps

3677
02:05:25,990 --> 02:05:24,159
should be because it may indicate that

3678
02:05:28,070 --> 02:05:26,000
we're not at the top of the food chain

3679
02:05:29,589 --> 02:05:28,080
it may mean that we don't mean what we

3680
02:05:31,589 --> 02:05:29,599
think we mean in terms of our place in

3681
02:05:33,189 --> 02:05:31,599
the universe our purpose even i feel the

3682
02:05:34,629 --> 02:05:33,199
same way about the prospects of hell i

3683
02:05:36,390 --> 02:05:34,639
don't want to believe in hell not that i

3684
02:05:38,310 --> 02:05:36,400
do but i don't want to believe in it in

3685
02:05:40,149 --> 02:05:38,320
some ways i don't want to believe in god

3686
02:05:41,990 --> 02:05:40,159
in some ways i find comfort in that

3687
02:05:43,510 --> 02:05:42,000
consciousness ends so there are so many

3688
02:05:45,510 --> 02:05:43,520
beliefs that people say well people have

3689
02:05:47,830 --> 02:05:45,520
a need to believe in in god people have

3690
02:05:49,830 --> 02:05:47,840
a need to believe in ufos some do some

3691
02:05:53,270 --> 02:05:49,840
don't and i think that if you seriously

3692
02:05:54,629 --> 02:05:53,280
thought about ufos perhaps

3693
02:05:56,950 --> 02:05:54,639
perhaps you would want to believe that

3694
02:05:59,270 --> 02:05:56,960
they don't exist when i say ufos i mean

3695
02:06:00,629 --> 02:05:59,280
obviously ufos exist the alien life

3696
02:06:02,709 --> 02:06:00,639
that's supposedly behind it is what i'm

3697
02:06:04,390 --> 02:06:02,719
referring to well i think that

3698
02:06:06,229 --> 02:06:04,400
exemplifies why you're

3699
02:06:08,390 --> 02:06:06,239
one of the best in the business kurt and

3700
02:06:09,430 --> 02:06:08,400
what you do on this on this channel uh

3701
02:06:11,990 --> 02:06:09,440
and that you

3702
02:06:15,270 --> 02:06:12,000
have uh this you know kind of humility

3703
02:06:18,149 --> 02:06:15,280
epis epistemological humility

3704
02:06:20,790 --> 02:06:18,159
but you also have a tenacity and that is

3705
02:06:22,790 --> 02:06:20,800
a rare combination um i think you know

3706
02:06:23,510 --> 02:06:22,800
one one nice place maybe to wrap up and

3707
02:06:25,430 --> 02:06:23,520
then

3708
02:06:27,589 --> 02:06:25,440
you know lee is often

3709
02:06:29,030 --> 02:06:27,599
i claim in a good sense you know my

3710
02:06:31,430 --> 02:06:29,040
belief fundamentally is that no one's an

3711
02:06:33,669 --> 02:06:31,440
atheist everyone has a religion you know

3712
02:06:35,350 --> 02:06:33,679
for some even that don't go to you know

3713
02:06:37,750 --> 02:06:35,360
church or synagogue you know that

3714
02:06:39,910 --> 02:06:37,760
religion as i documented my first book

3715
02:06:42,149 --> 02:06:39,920
losing the nobel prize it is often the

3716
02:06:43,990 --> 02:06:42,159
nobel prize and this is kind of a kosher

3717
02:06:45,830 --> 02:06:44,000
idol you know that yeah it doesn't cause

3718
02:06:47,270 --> 02:06:45,840
that much harm and yeah funding

3719
02:06:48,950 --> 02:06:47,280
decisions are made about it and you know

3720
02:06:50,550 --> 02:06:48,960
lee's mentioned it more times than i

3721
02:06:52,790 --> 02:06:50,560
have today and it's obviously you know

3722
02:06:54,950 --> 02:06:52,800
top of mind for many scientists and and

3723
02:06:55,910 --> 02:06:54,960
zyga's hopefully he would win it i don't

3724
02:06:57,750 --> 02:06:55,920
have anything against the people that

3725
02:07:00,470 --> 02:06:57,760
win it i've interviewed a dozen of them

3726
02:07:02,310 --> 02:07:00,480
on my show but on the other hand um you

3727
02:07:04,950 --> 02:07:02,320
know there even lack of a religion

3728
02:07:07,830 --> 02:07:04,960
secularism um i think that there is a

3729
02:07:09,990 --> 02:07:07,840
religion of scientism which is that uh

3730
02:07:11,589 --> 02:07:10,000
science can provide meaning and i'd like

3731
02:07:13,830 --> 02:07:11,599
to push back on that i'd like to explore

3732
02:07:15,990 --> 02:07:13,840
what lee and you think kurt about this

3733
02:07:18,229 --> 02:07:16,000
very notion in other words uh the word

3734
02:07:20,870 --> 02:07:18,239
science in in in

3735
02:07:22,950 --> 02:07:20,880
in in greek uh means knowledge it

3736
02:07:24,870 --> 02:07:22,960
doesn't mean wisdom you know sapien

3737
02:07:26,709 --> 02:07:24,880
means wisdom you know one who knows that

3738
02:07:28,870 --> 02:07:26,719
he knows sapienism i talked about this

3739
02:07:30,229 --> 02:07:28,880
lex friedman on the podcast just came

3740
02:07:32,950 --> 02:07:30,239
out and look forward by the way to lee

3741
02:07:35,589 --> 02:07:32,960
cronin who inspired me you know to to

3742
02:07:38,709 --> 02:07:35,599
you know get connected to lex again uh

3743
02:07:40,149 --> 02:07:38,719
you know lex uh hosted lee before me and

3744
02:07:42,069 --> 02:07:40,159
lee helped me prepare a lot for my

3745
02:07:43,430 --> 02:07:42,079
episode because he was on lex's show and

3746
02:07:44,470 --> 02:07:43,440
he'll hopefully have that episode out

3747
02:07:45,589 --> 02:07:44,480
soon too

3748
02:07:47,350 --> 02:07:45,599
allegedly

3749
02:07:48,629 --> 02:07:47,360
i can't wait to see that one but you

3750
02:07:50,390 --> 02:07:48,639
know i talked about this you know that

3751
02:07:52,790 --> 02:07:50,400
that i don't get any meaning from

3752
02:07:54,550 --> 02:07:52,800
science i think scientific science is

3753
02:07:56,310 --> 02:07:54,560
intrinsically inherently you know we may

3754
02:07:59,109 --> 02:07:56,320
have curiosity and the motto of my

3755
02:08:01,189 --> 02:07:59,119
channel is abc always be curious uh but

3756
02:08:03,350 --> 02:08:01,199
curiosity and wisdom don't necessarily

3757
02:08:05,430 --> 02:08:03,360
go together and i documented many times

3758
02:08:06,950 --> 02:08:05,440
you know nobel laureates that were nazis

3759
02:08:09,189 --> 02:08:06,960
you know and had great knowledge and

3760
02:08:11,030 --> 02:08:09,199
used their knowledge of of of chemicals

3761
02:08:12,629 --> 02:08:11,040
and you know forefathers you know fritz

3762
02:08:14,709 --> 02:08:12,639
haber you know leak

3763
02:08:16,950 --> 02:08:14,719
way more engineered safer yeah yeah yeah

3764
02:08:19,270 --> 02:08:16,960
it's evil you know and he was a jew and

3765
02:08:20,950 --> 02:08:19,280
his and his and his uh his icon b

3766
02:08:22,870 --> 02:08:20,960
eventually led to the gassing of many of

3767
02:08:24,629 --> 02:08:22,880
his own family members so anyway don't

3768
02:08:26,950 --> 02:08:24,639
look to science for wisdom so if you

3769
02:08:29,430 --> 02:08:26,960
can't look into it for wisdom

3770
02:08:30,870 --> 02:08:29,440
why do we look to it for meaning

3771
02:08:32,709 --> 02:08:30,880
so lee

3772
02:08:34,229 --> 02:08:32,719
i can i can give you a quick answer but

3773
02:08:36,470 --> 02:08:34,239
maybe it's your show where do you want

3774
02:08:39,189 --> 02:08:36,480
to go first yeah here's what i suggest i

3775
02:08:40,870 --> 02:08:39,199
suggest that we take a bathroom break

3776
02:08:42,709 --> 02:08:40,880
and then brian you check with your wife

3777
02:08:44,229 --> 02:08:42,719
see if it's okay if you keep talking for

3778
02:08:45,910 --> 02:08:44,239
a little while longer and leave with

3779
02:08:47,430 --> 02:08:45,920
whoever you have to speak to as well

3780
02:08:48,709 --> 02:08:47,440
because there are some audiences he has

3781
02:08:50,229 --> 02:08:48,719
to talk to the queen there are some

3782
02:08:52,950 --> 02:08:50,239
audience questions we haven't gotten to

3783
02:08:55,030 --> 02:08:52,960
oh yeah i'd like to get to those

3784
02:08:57,189 --> 02:08:55,040
all right yeah yeah i've got i've got 25

3785
02:08:58,149 --> 02:08:57,199
minutes this just in my wife says 25

3786
02:08:59,910 --> 02:08:58,159
more months

3787
02:09:02,149 --> 02:08:59,920
i'll take a two-minute break yeah yeah

3788
02:09:03,990 --> 02:09:02,159
and also quickly before we go so

3789
02:09:05,589 --> 02:09:04,000
lee do you have anything to promote i'll

3790
02:09:06,790 --> 02:09:05,599
make this transition smooth once we edit

3791
02:09:08,069 --> 02:09:06,800
this

3792
02:09:10,069 --> 02:09:08,079
do you oh

3793
02:09:13,270 --> 02:09:10,079
like a podcast channel or something

3794
02:09:15,109 --> 02:09:13,280
no i'm i'm i'm i i i'm pr i promote

3795
02:09:17,350 --> 02:09:15,119
house we're on the clubhouse a lot i

3796
02:09:18,470 --> 02:09:17,360
mean i i what am i promoting i'm i think

3797
02:09:20,229 --> 02:09:18,480
that um

3798
02:09:21,990 --> 02:09:20,239
i just want people to kind of ask more

3799
02:09:24,069 --> 02:09:22,000
questions in an unfriend in in an

3800
02:09:25,990 --> 02:09:24,079
unframed way and and know that they can

3801
02:09:26,629 --> 02:09:26,000
get framed you know

3802
02:09:29,830 --> 02:09:26,639
i

3803
02:09:32,629 --> 02:09:29,840
for me we'll talk about when we come

3804
02:09:34,709 --> 02:09:32,639
back from break but i genuinely love

3805
02:09:36,470 --> 02:09:34,719
not knowing and then finding a little

3806
02:09:38,790 --> 02:09:36,480
dent and then getting something yeah

3807
02:09:39,910 --> 02:09:38,800
it's like climbing a hill okay so yeah

3808
02:09:41,830 --> 02:09:39,920
the answer is no he doesn't have

3809
02:09:44,390 --> 02:09:41,840
anything but you should

3810
02:09:45,510 --> 02:09:44,400
you should go and look at that

3811
02:09:47,430 --> 02:09:45,520
i need to go to the toilet as well yeah

3812
02:09:48,550 --> 02:09:47,440
yeah because i wanted to just promote

3813
02:09:50,149 --> 02:09:48,560
right now and then let's go to the

3814
02:09:51,910 --> 02:09:50,159
washroom so people can click on this so

3815
02:09:53,589 --> 02:09:51,920
brian has losing the nobel prize as a

3816
02:09:55,589 --> 02:09:53,599
book you also have into the impossible

3817
02:09:56,950 --> 02:09:55,599
which is a book as well as a podcast and

3818
02:09:58,470 --> 02:09:56,960
the links are in the description i have

3819
02:10:00,709 --> 02:09:58,480
purchased both of them

3820
02:10:02,229 --> 02:10:00,719
additionally brian your interview with

3821
02:10:04,950 --> 02:10:02,239
lex friedman just came out either today

3822
02:10:06,229 --> 02:10:04,960
or yesterday so that's fresh and lee you

3823
02:10:07,030 --> 02:10:06,239
have a ted talk

3824
02:10:09,189 --> 02:10:07,040
and

3825
02:10:10,870 --> 02:10:09,199
i believe i believe an upcoming lex

3826
02:10:12,390 --> 02:10:10,880
freeman podcast interview hopefully

3827
02:10:15,510 --> 02:10:12,400
allegedly i'm not saying anything

3828
02:10:18,310 --> 02:10:15,520
brian's building not me on lex's podcast

3829
02:10:20,229 --> 02:10:18,320
we have alex has an image of me and lee

3830
02:10:21,750 --> 02:10:20,239
talking on my podcast so it's definitely

3831
02:10:24,069 --> 02:10:21,760
coming out people who are watching just

3832
02:10:26,149 --> 02:10:24,079
click on those links and look up

3833
02:10:32,950 --> 02:10:26,159
lee and brian's

3834
02:10:36,229 --> 02:10:34,390
you should know that

3835
02:10:38,390 --> 02:10:36,239
releasing in just a couple hours is the

3836
02:10:40,149 --> 02:10:38,400
stephon alexander interview and that one

3837
02:10:41,589 --> 02:10:40,159
we talk about matrix models and string

3838
02:10:43,350 --> 02:10:41,599
theory it's super interesting look

3839
02:10:45,350 --> 02:10:43,360
forward to that it's premiering in about

3840
02:10:47,430 --> 02:10:45,360
three hours

3841
02:10:48,790 --> 02:10:47,440
stefan alexander coincidentally or

3842
02:10:50,229 --> 02:10:48,800
perhaps not coincidentally is one of

3843
02:10:52,069 --> 02:10:50,239
brian keating's best friends if not his

3844
02:10:54,709 --> 02:10:52,079
best friend so are you at home are you

3845
02:10:59,589 --> 02:10:58,069
this is my home office oh i'm actually

3846
02:11:01,589 --> 02:10:59,599
i'm actually in fact in there in the

3847
02:11:04,390 --> 02:11:01,599
corner there that is the cellular

3848
02:11:06,550 --> 02:11:04,400
automata running in 3d in my led cube

3849
02:11:07,830 --> 02:11:06,560
that's interesting in fact it's conway's

3850
02:11:08,870 --> 02:11:07,840
game of life

3851
02:11:10,870 --> 02:11:08,880
um

3852
02:11:14,069 --> 02:11:10,880
you incorrectly implemented boundary

3853
02:11:15,830 --> 02:11:14,079
conditions because i'm rubbish at that

3854
02:11:17,990 --> 02:11:15,840
interesting okay

3855
02:11:19,430 --> 02:11:18,000
my lab is moving the next way we're in

3856
02:11:20,470 --> 02:11:19,440
glasgow i'm in the old in the chemistry

3857
02:11:21,669 --> 02:11:20,480
department which is a lovely old

3858
02:11:24,069 --> 02:11:21,679
building

3859
02:11:27,109 --> 02:11:24,079
but it's not quite fit for purpose and

3860
02:11:28,390 --> 02:11:27,119
i'm moving my team onto a new floor

3861
02:11:29,830 --> 02:11:28,400
and we've got um

3862
02:11:31,830 --> 02:11:29,840
all these fume hoods all kitted out for

3863
02:11:34,149 --> 02:11:31,840
all the digital camera history kit

3864
02:11:36,629 --> 02:11:34,159
so the the dream

3865
02:11:39,830 --> 02:11:36,639
experiment that i wanted to build

3866
02:11:41,189 --> 02:11:39,840
ten years ago will be constructed

3867
02:11:43,270 --> 02:11:41,199
in march

3868
02:11:45,430 --> 02:11:43,280
and we have the assembly meter

3869
02:11:48,149 --> 02:11:45,440
so you never know

3870
02:11:50,229 --> 02:11:48,159
by april 2024 we might have the answer

3871
02:11:52,550 --> 02:11:50,239
or an answer but

3872
02:11:54,790 --> 02:11:52,560
uh yeah so but i've been doing a lot of

3873
02:11:56,709 --> 02:11:54,800
work at home obviously with covid

3874
02:12:00,950 --> 02:11:56,719
we've all been trapped but now covey is

3875
02:12:02,709 --> 02:12:00,960
almost hopefully cross whatever unless

3876
02:12:03,669 --> 02:12:02,719
unless the person who wrote covet i'm

3877
02:12:07,270 --> 02:12:03,679
joking

3878
02:12:09,109 --> 02:12:07,280
has updated the firmware

3879
02:12:11,270 --> 02:12:09,119
i saw that on so it's like there's lots

3880
02:12:13,270 --> 02:12:11,280
of jokes at the moment about that

3881
02:12:15,189 --> 02:12:13,280
you know the problem with you know i was

3882
02:12:16,390 --> 02:12:15,199
listening some of your jokes brian but

3883
02:12:18,470 --> 02:12:16,400
was it someone about the problem of

3884
02:12:20,629 --> 02:12:18,480
omicron if we don't solve it now

3885
02:12:23,030 --> 02:12:20,639
you know what comes after omikron

3886
02:12:24,790 --> 02:12:23,040
is pie and that just goes on forever ah

3887
02:12:26,629 --> 02:12:24,800
that's hilarious

3888
02:12:29,270 --> 02:12:26,639
who said that

3889
02:12:32,790 --> 02:12:29,280
oh it was on a it was on a podcast i

3890
02:12:35,430 --> 02:12:32,800
heard a uk political podcast um

3891
02:12:37,990 --> 02:12:35,440
called the bunker

3892
02:12:40,310 --> 02:12:38,000
so all the load of left wingers we what

3893
02:12:43,189 --> 02:12:40,320
we're sad about brexit oh i mean i'm sad

3894
02:12:44,709 --> 02:12:43,199
about brexit but um no politics here

3895
02:12:45,669 --> 02:12:44,719
okay so let's get to some audience

3896
02:12:47,910 --> 02:12:45,679
questions

3897
02:12:50,069 --> 02:12:47,920
also well another time we can talk about

3898
02:12:51,830 --> 02:12:50,079
free will in time

3899
02:12:53,990 --> 02:12:51,840
we started off with that and i'm so

3900
02:12:55,910 --> 02:12:54,000
excited we can solve we can solve time

3901
02:12:57,340 --> 02:12:55,920
consciousness and free will in one easy

3902
02:13:00,310 --> 02:12:57,350
podcast

3903
02:13:02,950 --> 02:13:00,320
[Laughter]

3904
02:13:04,069 --> 02:13:02,960
okay well briefly quickly

3905
02:13:05,430 --> 02:13:04,079
lee when you said that time is

3906
02:13:06,550 --> 02:13:05,440
fundamental i don't know if you actually

3907
02:13:08,069 --> 02:13:06,560
said that but when you you were talking

3908
02:13:09,750 --> 02:13:08,079
about entropic time is what we normally

3909
02:13:12,470 --> 02:13:09,760
think of as physicists as

3910
02:13:14,550 --> 02:13:12,480
as precipitating the arrow of time and

3911
02:13:16,550 --> 02:13:14,560
you're saying that well that may be the

3912
02:13:17,990 --> 02:13:16,560
wrong way of going about it so are your

3913
02:13:21,830 --> 02:13:18,000
views more aligned with lee because lee

3914
02:13:25,270 --> 02:13:23,669
but briefly lee if you don't mind oh

3915
02:13:27,510 --> 02:13:25,280
sorry he hasn't lee smalling yeah yeah

3916
02:13:29,189 --> 02:13:27,520
sorry yeah yeah well so i first met lee

3917
02:13:31,030 --> 02:13:29,199
smolin and i told him my theory thomas

3918
02:13:32,550 --> 02:13:31,040
oh that's my theory and i'm like wow our

3919
02:13:34,870 --> 02:13:32,560
names are both lee

3920
02:13:37,030 --> 02:13:34,880
yeah so i mine is slightly more dramatic

3921
02:13:39,350 --> 02:13:37,040
and remember i'm a professional idiot

3922
02:13:41,750 --> 02:13:39,360
regis idiot and what i mean by that is

3923
02:13:44,390 --> 02:13:41,760
that um i don't get confined by

3924
02:13:46,550 --> 02:13:44,400
discipline boundaries so it was when i

3925
02:13:48,310 --> 02:13:46,560
first told sarah my theory of time she

3926
02:13:50,229 --> 02:13:48,320
was just like this just can't be true

3927
02:13:51,910 --> 02:13:50,239
you know this is just but all i'm saying

3928
02:13:53,589 --> 02:13:51,920
is that there is no such thing as space

3929
02:13:56,950 --> 02:13:53,599
there is time okay

3930
02:13:58,470 --> 02:13:56,960
and from and time creates space right in

3931
02:14:01,990 --> 02:13:58,480
some mechanism that we don't really

3932
02:14:04,229 --> 02:14:02,000
understand and um that breaks in

3933
02:14:05,510 --> 02:14:04,239
everything we need i tried to argue with

3934
02:14:07,589 --> 02:14:05,520
sean carroll about this but he didn't

3935
02:14:08,950 --> 02:14:07,599
even argue he said no you're just wrong

3936
02:14:10,550 --> 02:14:08,960
i was like well i said well my theory is

3937
02:14:13,030 --> 02:14:10,560
better time can go forward and backwards

3938
02:14:16,069 --> 02:14:13,040
and i'm like that breaks causality so

3939
02:14:16,870 --> 02:14:16,079
time is primal time creates space

3940
02:14:21,669 --> 02:14:16,880
and

3941
02:14:23,669 --> 02:14:21,679
amount of time that has existed in our

3942
02:14:26,229 --> 02:14:23,679
current universe right that doesn't mean

3943
02:14:28,149 --> 02:14:26,239
there aren't things outside our universe

3944
02:14:30,149 --> 02:14:28,159
and uh and it works a bit like that and

3945
02:14:32,550 --> 02:14:30,159
that's why assembly

3946
02:14:34,470 --> 02:14:32,560
helps us quantify that through assembly

3947
02:14:36,390 --> 02:14:34,480
is almost like looks at the degree of

3948
02:14:39,030 --> 02:14:36,400
asymmetry since the beginning of time

3949
02:14:40,550 --> 02:14:39,040
that's recorded but i can i can budge on

3950
02:14:42,069 --> 02:14:40,560
some of it but that's it in two or three

3951
02:14:43,830 --> 02:14:42,079
sentences yeah we'll talk about that

3952
02:14:45,430 --> 02:14:43,840
we'll perhaps have another podcast and

3953
02:14:47,589 --> 02:14:45,440
so people who are watching if you have

3954
02:14:49,510 --> 02:14:47,599
questions for brian and or lee leave

3955
02:14:51,910 --> 02:14:49,520
them below okay brian do you have any

3956
02:14:53,430 --> 02:14:51,920
quick comments on the nature of time

3957
02:14:54,470 --> 02:14:53,440
before we get to the questions from the

3958
02:14:56,550 --> 02:14:54,480
audience

3959
02:14:58,069 --> 02:14:56,560
well i think you know time again is one

3960
02:15:00,069 --> 02:14:58,079
of these things that you know we kind of

3961
02:15:01,350 --> 02:15:00,079
know it when we see it it's it's like

3962
02:15:03,430 --> 02:15:01,360
you know what does it

3963
02:15:04,950 --> 02:15:03,440
feel like to be a bat you know nagel's

3964
02:15:06,470 --> 02:15:04,960
question you know it's always just like

3965
02:15:08,790 --> 02:15:06,480
we don't know

3966
02:15:11,030 --> 02:15:08,800
and i find that uh

3967
02:15:12,629 --> 02:15:11,040
sort of interpretable in the sense of we

3968
02:15:14,870 --> 02:15:12,639
know it when we feel it we know when we

3969
02:15:16,390 --> 02:15:14,880
see it we have biological clocks

3970
02:15:18,229 --> 02:15:16,400
we're turning grayer and greyer kurt

3971
02:15:20,790 --> 02:15:18,239
doesn't know that yet uh but but someday

3972
02:15:23,669 --> 02:15:20,800
he will uh we take comfort that his

3973
02:15:25,109 --> 02:15:23,679
diminution and beauty will only only uh

3974
02:15:26,550 --> 02:15:25,119
catch up to art well you look like buzz

3975
02:15:28,069 --> 02:15:26,560
lightyear man like that's a huge

3976
02:15:29,270 --> 02:15:28,079
compliment someone in the lex comments

3977
02:15:30,709 --> 02:15:29,280
said that and i thought man that's

3978
02:15:32,069 --> 02:15:30,719
exactly right and you're an astronomer

3979
02:15:33,910 --> 02:15:32,079
as well and lee you're a great looking

3980
02:15:36,229 --> 02:15:33,920
guy yeah i remember when i saw you i'm

3981
02:15:39,830 --> 02:15:36,239
like this is a good looking guy i don't

3982
02:15:43,270 --> 02:15:41,669
you're a good-looking guy too brian yeah

3983
02:15:45,030 --> 02:15:43,280
thank you very much but that means he

3984
02:15:46,870 --> 02:15:45,040
lives in a bubble you know you're power

3985
02:15:47,990 --> 02:15:46,880
more you're a powerful looking guy brian

3986
02:15:49,990 --> 02:15:48,000
i'd say that

3987
02:15:52,310 --> 02:15:50,000
thank you thank you i do have a strong

3988
02:15:53,910 --> 02:15:52,320
aroma well well i'd rather be

3989
02:15:55,830 --> 02:15:53,920
okay never mind

3990
02:15:57,830 --> 02:15:55,840
so time you know i had talked about this

3991
02:16:00,069 --> 02:15:57,840
with frank wilczyk on on my into the

3992
02:16:01,430 --> 02:16:00,079
impossible podcast i said what is time

3993
02:16:04,310 --> 02:16:01,440
you know just like i asked lee what is

3994
02:16:05,990 --> 02:16:04,320
life um yeah i asked uh other people

3995
02:16:07,750 --> 02:16:06,000
helping out philip goff on i'll ask him

3996
02:16:09,750 --> 02:16:07,760
what is consciousness you know it's like

3997
02:16:11,270 --> 02:16:09,760
we know it when we see it frank said to

3998
02:16:13,270 --> 02:16:11,280
me will chuck said you know time is what

3999
02:16:15,030 --> 02:16:13,280
clock's mentioned all right thanks a lot

4000
02:16:16,390 --> 02:16:15,040
you know yeah but anything could be a

4001
02:16:18,870 --> 02:16:16,400
clock so i think what's interesting is

4002
02:16:20,709 --> 02:16:18,880
to pursue the path that lee has pursued

4003
02:16:23,109 --> 02:16:20,719
uh you know what is the simplest mall

4004
02:16:24,950 --> 02:16:23,119
you know chemical that can form

4005
02:16:27,109 --> 02:16:24,960
with with inspiration with direction

4006
02:16:28,550 --> 02:16:27,119
towards evolutionary purposes and he has

4007
02:16:30,950 --> 02:16:28,560
simulations that you can see in his ted

4008
02:16:33,270 --> 02:16:30,960
talk about that's brilliant um i think

4009
02:16:34,870 --> 02:16:33,280
uh there's a experiment done at nist and

4010
02:16:36,950 --> 02:16:34,880
i'm going to have a nicole halpern

4011
02:16:39,110 --> 02:16:36,960
younger on who's a brilliant scientist

4012
02:16:41,429 --> 02:16:39,120
at nist in maryland and she has a new

4013
02:16:43,429 --> 02:16:41,439
book called quantum steampunk which is

4014
02:16:46,629 --> 02:16:43,439
really delightful kind of in the vein of

4015
02:16:48,309 --> 02:16:46,639
a roger penrose emperor's new new mind

4016
02:16:49,990 --> 02:16:48,319
uh in which she talks about you know

4017
02:16:52,070 --> 02:16:50,000
what is the world's simplest clock and

4018
02:16:54,309 --> 02:16:52,080
on my channel i make explainer videos

4019
02:16:57,990 --> 02:16:54,319
and one i did is what is time and and

4020
02:16:59,669 --> 02:16:58,000
how can you understand time um by making

4021
02:17:01,589 --> 02:16:59,679
the world's simplest clock and what is a

4022
02:17:02,629 --> 02:17:01,599
clock something that ticks okay well

4023
02:17:04,070 --> 02:17:02,639
what is something that takes what has

4024
02:17:05,990 --> 02:17:04,080
quantum states and i think the

4025
02:17:08,469 --> 02:17:06,000
revolution that uh would be interesting

4026
02:17:09,990 --> 02:17:08,479
for another podcast maybe lee and and

4027
02:17:12,230 --> 02:17:10,000
kurt will come on my podcast maybe with

4028
02:17:14,629 --> 02:17:12,240
avi loeb we can have a knockdown drag

4029
02:17:16,709 --> 02:17:14,639
out a conversation lee smallin just get

4030
02:17:18,870 --> 02:17:16,719
everybody in there mosh pit uh is to

4031
02:17:20,790 --> 02:17:18,880
talk about well what are the quantum

4032
02:17:22,950 --> 02:17:20,800
implications you know there's quantum

4033
02:17:25,190 --> 02:17:22,960
thermodynamics that's coming to the

4034
02:17:26,549 --> 02:17:25,200
front things like silard entropy and

4035
02:17:28,469 --> 02:17:26,559
stuff that lee knows about that i'm just

4036
02:17:29,910 --> 02:17:28,479
learning about i think these are all

4037
02:17:31,270 --> 02:17:29,920
really fruitful and i wonder how that

4038
02:17:34,309 --> 02:17:31,280
could feed into things that lee is

4039
02:17:36,309 --> 02:17:34,319
working on but yeah for now maybe um you

4040
02:17:37,990 --> 02:17:36,319
want to talk about uh meaning from

4041
02:17:39,270 --> 02:17:38,000
science or do you want to talk audience

4042
02:17:40,549 --> 02:17:39,280
questions i want to do i want to make

4043
02:17:41,990 --> 02:17:40,559
sure that we answer all the audience

4044
02:17:44,469 --> 02:17:42,000
yeah let's get to the audience so this

4045
02:17:46,790 --> 02:17:44,479
one comes from

4046
02:17:48,790 --> 02:17:46,800
sneaky toaster

4047
02:17:50,870 --> 02:17:48,800
questions my kids that was the my first

4048
02:17:52,309 --> 02:17:50,880
choice for my middle child's middle name

4049
02:17:53,429 --> 02:17:52,319
so the question is eric weinstein and

4050
02:17:55,190 --> 02:17:53,439
others are advocating for the

4051
02:17:57,669 --> 02:17:55,200
irrefutable data the government has on

4052
02:17:59,349 --> 02:17:57,679
uap's ufos to be released to the science

4053
02:18:02,389 --> 02:17:59,359
community should the science community

4054
02:18:06,950 --> 02:18:04,950
well i've pushed back with uh respect to

4055
02:18:09,030 --> 02:18:06,960
eric i've told them on clubhouse chats

4056
02:18:11,589 --> 02:18:09,040
on my you know what what do you mean

4057
02:18:13,349 --> 02:18:11,599
like the data like data is the data the

4058
02:18:15,190 --> 02:18:13,359
hubble deep field like if there are

4059
02:18:17,429 --> 02:18:15,200
aliens you know in the universe then you

4060
02:18:19,429 --> 02:18:17,439
know there's uh 10 to the fifth or ten

4061
02:18:21,669 --> 02:18:19,439
to the fourth galaxies in the hubble

4062
02:18:23,110 --> 02:18:21,679
ultra deep field then you know there's

4063
02:18:25,190 --> 02:18:23,120
probably an awful lot of aliens in there

4064
02:18:26,790 --> 02:18:25,200
you know go go for it but but but i

4065
02:18:28,870 --> 02:18:26,800
wonder you know is that really true

4066
02:18:30,870 --> 02:18:28,880
there's data again the hubble deep field

4067
02:18:32,309 --> 02:18:30,880
tells you exactly one thing as far as i

4068
02:18:34,230 --> 02:18:32,319
can tell maybe it tells you a little bit

4069
02:18:37,349 --> 02:18:34,240
more it allows you to estimate with

4070
02:18:39,669 --> 02:18:37,359
about 50 uncertainty and again the issue

4071
02:18:41,589 --> 02:18:39,679
is not the error it's not the uh value

4072
02:18:43,750 --> 02:18:41,599
that is measured the mantissa you know

4073
02:18:45,429 --> 02:18:43,760
it is the error bars that's where the

4074
02:18:47,270 --> 02:18:45,439
science comes in i can measure something

4075
02:18:49,190 --> 02:18:47,280
even i could go into lee's lab and make

4076
02:18:51,429 --> 02:18:49,200
some chemical reactions and you know i'd

4077
02:18:53,270 --> 02:18:51,439
probably make ho2 or you know whatever i

4078
02:18:55,429 --> 02:18:53,280
screw up everything i i joke that when i

4079
02:18:57,830 --> 02:18:55,439
did biology i would dissect the frog the

4080
02:19:01,190 --> 02:18:57,840
frog would live i'm terrible at these

4081
02:19:02,950 --> 02:19:01,200
wet sciences but the error bars that's

4082
02:19:05,030 --> 02:19:02,960
where the scientist comes out and i

4083
02:19:07,030 --> 02:19:05,040
think unless you tell me what is your

4084
02:19:09,270 --> 02:19:07,040
way of doing what's called a blind

4085
02:19:11,910 --> 02:19:09,280
analysis here's an example with my

4086
02:19:13,589 --> 02:19:11,920
telescopes i measure data i measure data

4087
02:19:15,270 --> 02:19:13,599
from the big bang the origin of the

4088
02:19:16,870 --> 02:19:15,280
universe the origin of the elements

4089
02:19:18,950 --> 02:19:16,880
called the cosmic microwave background

4090
02:19:20,629 --> 02:19:18,960
radiation if i make an observation of

4091
02:19:22,549 --> 02:19:20,639
the polarization looking for waves of

4092
02:19:24,469 --> 02:19:22,559
gravity that could indicate the presence

4093
02:19:27,429 --> 02:19:24,479
of an early exponential phase of

4094
02:19:29,990 --> 02:19:27,439
inflationary expansion which is you know

4095
02:19:32,309 --> 02:19:30,000
surely could garner many many accolades

4096
02:19:35,830 --> 02:19:32,319
and satiate our knowledge

4097
02:19:38,070 --> 02:19:35,840
of perhaps all of the conjectures about

4098
02:19:39,190 --> 02:19:38,080
things called the multiverse well if i

4099
02:19:41,429 --> 02:19:39,200
do that

4100
02:19:43,750 --> 02:19:41,439
and i make a claim i have to show that

4101
02:19:45,509 --> 02:19:43,760
that data is immune from dust

4102
02:19:47,429 --> 02:19:45,519
but i also have to show that the data i

4103
02:19:49,429 --> 02:19:47,439
got on tuesday is the same as the data i

4104
02:19:50,870 --> 02:19:49,439
got on a wednesday and that the data i

4105
02:19:52,309 --> 02:19:50,880
got when the telescope was slewing to

4106
02:19:53,349 --> 02:19:52,319
the left at four degrees per second is

4107
02:19:54,710 --> 02:19:53,359
the same as the one and slew to the

4108
02:19:56,309 --> 02:19:54,720
right at four degrees for a second

4109
02:19:57,110 --> 02:19:56,319
that's a critical sorry i was gonna

4110
02:19:58,630 --> 02:19:57,120
start

4111
02:20:00,150 --> 02:19:58,640
to interrupt but i i want to frame

4112
02:20:01,590 --> 02:20:00,160
something here because this is almost

4113
02:20:04,630 --> 02:20:01,600
getting why i was saying about avi

4114
02:20:06,550 --> 02:20:04,640
earlier and also um er what eric is

4115
02:20:08,389 --> 02:20:06,560
saying is that when he says show us the

4116
02:20:10,790 --> 02:20:08,399
data it's almost like there's like he's

4117
02:20:12,790 --> 02:20:10,800
kind of invoking some kind of conspiracy

4118
02:20:14,950 --> 02:20:12,800
and stuff and there's all these you know

4119
02:20:17,190 --> 02:20:14,960
little green men and what brian is just

4120
02:20:19,670 --> 02:20:17,200
really precisely i know what we want to

4121
02:20:21,110 --> 02:20:19,680
know is at this spot on earth at this

4122
02:20:22,469 --> 02:20:21,120
time when this was happening what was

4123
02:20:25,110 --> 02:20:22,479
happening show a show and show us so

4124
02:20:26,550 --> 02:20:25,120
we've got a comparable data control

4125
02:20:27,750 --> 02:20:26,560
sorry to interrupt you brian but i think

4126
02:20:30,950 --> 02:20:27,760
it's really important that we because

4127
02:20:32,389 --> 02:20:30,960
we're both eye to eye on this yeah

4128
02:20:34,710 --> 02:20:32,399
the point is you have to tell me ahead

4129
02:20:37,110 --> 02:20:34,720
of time when i do an analysis we have to

4130
02:20:38,950 --> 02:20:37,120
show in a blind analysis what the error

4131
02:20:41,270 --> 02:20:38,960
bar will get for a variety of different

4132
02:20:43,349 --> 02:20:41,280
scenarios until you tell me i might give

4133
02:20:44,389 --> 02:20:43,359
you data but until you tell me and

4134
02:20:45,830 --> 02:20:44,399
actually we don't even do it because

4135
02:20:47,750 --> 02:20:45,840
it's a tremendous amount of work for us

4136
02:20:49,190 --> 02:20:47,760
to process data in a way that another

4137
02:20:51,429 --> 02:20:49,200
person could come in to understand

4138
02:20:54,070 --> 02:20:51,439
calibration flat fielding spectral

4139
02:20:55,670 --> 02:20:54,080
spectral line uh flat um dark currents

4140
02:20:57,270 --> 02:20:55,680
all the things that go into just imaging

4141
02:20:58,710 --> 02:20:57,280
and imaging is simple compared to

4142
02:21:00,150 --> 02:20:58,720
measuring the cmb

4143
02:21:02,230 --> 02:21:00,160
just in terms of like these detectors

4144
02:21:03,429 --> 02:21:02,240
have been around 40 years longer than

4145
02:21:05,349 --> 02:21:03,439
the type of detectors that i'm working

4146
02:21:07,750 --> 02:21:05,359
with um i'm not saying it's easier or

4147
02:21:09,750 --> 02:21:07,760
harder globally or more important but

4148
02:21:11,190 --> 02:21:09,760
the bottom line is i have to my student

4149
02:21:12,950 --> 02:21:11,200
has to tell me how she's going to

4150
02:21:15,429 --> 02:21:12,960
analyze the data and how she's going to

4151
02:21:17,670 --> 02:21:15,439
assess the final error bar long before

4152
02:21:20,230 --> 02:21:17,680
we unblind and let her see the results

4153
02:21:21,830 --> 02:21:20,240
so tell me how could you mistakenly

4154
02:21:23,670 --> 02:21:21,840
interpret in the image which i don't

4155
02:21:25,990 --> 02:21:23,680
think is really as probative as spectral

4156
02:21:27,910 --> 02:21:26,000
data or radar data whatever but let's

4157
02:21:29,590 --> 02:21:27,920
just stipulate it as tell me how you're

4158
02:21:32,550 --> 02:21:29,600
going to interpret to guard against this

4159
02:21:34,469 --> 02:21:32,560
feynman said you fooling yourself and

4160
02:21:36,150 --> 02:21:34,479
you everyone i'm looking at you out

4161
02:21:37,910 --> 02:21:36,160
there you are the easiest person to fool

4162
02:21:39,349 --> 02:21:37,920
i'm happy to share data and i'll

4163
02:21:41,349 --> 02:21:39,359
advocate for you

4164
02:21:43,349 --> 02:21:41,359
about getting data out of the galileo

4165
02:21:45,030 --> 02:21:43,359
project however you have to do some

4166
02:21:46,230 --> 02:21:45,040
legwork too you can't say oh they're

4167
02:21:47,910 --> 02:21:46,240
hiding it from me therefore they're

4168
02:21:49,190 --> 02:21:47,920
hiding something forever no

4169
02:21:50,150 --> 02:21:49,200
tell me what you're going to do with it

4170
02:21:52,389 --> 02:21:50,160
tell me how you're going to prove

4171
02:21:54,070 --> 02:21:52,399
yourself wrong and so that i will say to

4172
02:21:58,230 --> 02:21:54,080
you you are my fellow scientist even

4173
02:22:03,190 --> 02:22:00,389
okay this was a live chat question

4174
02:22:06,150 --> 02:22:03,200
someone wants to know lee tom poliska

4175
02:22:08,309 --> 02:22:06,160
tom polesky asks lee why hasn't your

4176
02:22:12,309 --> 02:22:08,319
seti experiment with spectrograph in the

4177
02:22:14,550 --> 02:22:12,319
infrared been done by anyone yet

4178
02:22:16,230 --> 02:22:14,560
because i happen to have a big mouth and

4179
02:22:18,630 --> 02:22:16,240
like all the stuff happening in the lab

4180
02:22:20,790 --> 02:22:18,640
i always talk about fraud publish it but

4181
02:22:22,230 --> 02:22:20,800
the paper's almost finished and when

4182
02:22:24,070 --> 02:22:22,240
people said to me you couldn't possibly

4183
02:22:25,510 --> 02:22:24,080
get assembly number our mass spectator

4184
02:22:27,349 --> 02:22:25,520
and we did i think but we can do it with

4185
02:22:29,830 --> 02:22:27,359
a thing called nmr nuclear magnetic

4186
02:22:32,309 --> 02:22:29,840
resonance and infrared and we've just

4187
02:22:34,230 --> 02:22:32,319
done it and we proved it works so i very

4188
02:22:36,950 --> 02:22:34,240
much hope that once we get this out

4189
02:22:40,070 --> 02:22:36,960
there that we will put out enough um

4190
02:22:41,510 --> 02:22:40,080
data and uh and the algorithm required

4191
02:22:43,349 --> 02:22:41,520
for people to start the next square and

4192
02:22:46,790 --> 02:22:43,359
indeed there are people who are going to

4193
02:22:48,950 --> 02:22:46,800
be getting um spectroscopy uh especially

4194
02:22:50,630 --> 02:22:48,960
spectroscopic data from out the solar

4195
02:22:52,870 --> 02:22:50,640
system which want to try with try this

4196
02:22:55,830 --> 02:22:52,880
with but we need to be cautious because

4197
02:22:57,270 --> 02:22:55,840
the resolution is really so poor there's

4198
02:22:59,750 --> 02:22:57,280
limited amount of things we can do but

4199
02:23:01,910 --> 02:22:59,760
my dream would be to put a spectrometer

4200
02:23:04,150 --> 02:23:01,920
an infrared spectrometer in in orbit

4201
02:23:06,550 --> 02:23:04,160
above venus there's a lot of and maybe

4202
02:23:08,309 --> 02:23:06,560
one in orbit maybe in titan and we could

4203
02:23:10,710 --> 02:23:08,319
do exactly that experiment so it's a

4204
02:23:13,270 --> 02:23:10,720
really good point and literally assembly

4205
02:23:15,030 --> 02:23:13,280
theory was kind of invented last year

4206
02:23:17,110 --> 02:23:15,040
we published the paper the experiment

4207
02:23:19,030 --> 02:23:17,120
the mass effect paper in may

4208
02:23:20,630 --> 02:23:19,040
we've been working on several theory

4209
02:23:22,630 --> 02:23:20,640
papers and more experimental paper and

4210
02:23:24,790 --> 02:23:22,640
that's just coming so yeah it's really

4211
02:23:26,790 --> 02:23:24,800
literally hot off the press so it's not

4212
02:23:29,030 --> 02:23:26,800
made up it works but i just need to

4213
02:23:31,349 --> 02:23:29,040
literally get it into a pre-print in

4214
02:23:33,110 --> 02:23:31,359
publication and i'm talking to various

4215
02:23:34,710 --> 02:23:33,120
organizations that may or may not have

4216
02:23:36,870 --> 02:23:34,720
lots of money and may or may not have

4217
02:23:38,870 --> 02:23:36,880
lots of maybe private and public that

4218
02:23:42,150 --> 02:23:38,880
are planning missions

4219
02:23:43,429 --> 02:23:42,160
and um and i'm advocating very strongly

4220
02:23:45,510 --> 02:23:43,439
for us to do that

4221
02:23:47,830 --> 02:23:45,520
send a telescope they can do infrared

4222
02:23:51,110 --> 02:23:47,840
spectroscopy all around the solar system

4223
02:23:53,030 --> 02:23:51,120
and map the assembliness of everything

4224
02:23:55,910 --> 02:23:53,040
okay this question comes from vissen

4225
02:23:58,150 --> 02:23:55,920
cosmin this is to both of you ask all of

4226
02:24:00,150 --> 02:23:58,160
your materialist guests to give one

4227
02:24:05,670 --> 02:24:00,160
single example of something outside of

4228
02:24:09,110 --> 02:24:07,510
i think there are

4229
02:24:10,389 --> 02:24:09,120
great difficulties in doing that simply

4230
02:24:11,830 --> 02:24:10,399
because we are

4231
02:24:14,150 --> 02:24:11,840
the ghost in the machine that is

4232
02:24:17,270 --> 02:24:14,160
defining a what consciousness is what

4233
02:24:18,790 --> 02:24:17,280
are experiences what is materialistic or

4234
02:24:19,670 --> 02:24:18,800
not i should say that you know i'm much

4235
02:24:21,910 --> 02:24:19,680
more

4236
02:24:24,790 --> 02:24:21,920
much less materialistic than i assume

4237
02:24:27,429 --> 02:24:24,800
lee is i know elias i don't know so much

4238
02:24:29,830 --> 02:24:27,439
about kurt but i'd love to know more

4239
02:24:31,349 --> 02:24:29,840
in that there are um what what i usually

4240
02:24:33,750 --> 02:24:31,359
talk about is

4241
02:24:36,630 --> 02:24:33,760
you know are there is there permission

4242
02:24:38,550 --> 02:24:36,640
to believe not not the proof i said this

4243
02:24:40,790 --> 02:24:38,560
on lex's pocket like i don't care if i

4244
02:24:42,790 --> 02:24:40,800
believe in god you know like

4245
02:24:44,870 --> 02:24:42,800
does god need me does god care about

4246
02:24:47,349 --> 02:24:44,880
brian keating who gives a crime you know

4247
02:24:49,510 --> 02:24:47,359
um you know maybe maybe if god believes

4248
02:24:51,510 --> 02:24:49,520
in me you know if god exists but the

4249
02:24:53,429 --> 02:24:51,520
question of whether or not you i'm a

4250
02:24:55,429 --> 02:24:53,439
behaviorist so i think that people

4251
02:24:57,670 --> 02:24:55,439
manifest how they behave

4252
02:24:59,670 --> 02:24:57,680
the underlying consciousness that they

4253
02:25:01,990 --> 02:24:59,680
are internalized have that they have

4254
02:25:04,550 --> 02:25:02,000
internalized is is manifest externally

4255
02:25:07,190 --> 02:25:04,560
by their behaviors so i look to things

4256
02:25:10,070 --> 02:25:07,200
like religion in a very practical sense

4257
02:25:12,870 --> 02:25:10,080
uh can this give can this give community

4258
02:25:16,309 --> 02:25:12,880
can this give a purpose can this without

4259
02:25:18,630 --> 02:25:16,319
necessarily accepting the reality

4260
02:25:20,550 --> 02:25:18,640
as provable in a scientific context i

4261
02:25:22,950 --> 02:25:20,560
don't think you can prove or disprove

4262
02:25:25,830 --> 02:25:22,960
and i give upgrade my religious friends

4263
02:25:27,429 --> 02:25:25,840
too i say if you don't learn science

4264
02:25:29,110 --> 02:25:27,439
you're you're basically just you know

4265
02:25:30,870 --> 02:25:29,120
kind of living in this in this bubble if

4266
02:25:32,870 --> 02:25:30,880
you don't learn because science may

4267
02:25:35,030 --> 02:25:32,880
actually bolster your faith

4268
02:25:37,349 --> 02:25:35,040
as i said you know lexis podcast i've

4269
02:25:39,670 --> 02:25:37,359
said other places you know what if the

4270
02:25:42,309 --> 02:25:39,680
fact that we can perceive an infinite

4271
02:25:45,270 --> 02:25:42,319
spectrum of colors an infinite diversity

4272
02:25:47,510 --> 02:25:45,280
of life an infinite number of tastes and

4273
02:25:49,670 --> 02:25:47,520
you know dimensionality of what it could

4274
02:25:51,910 --> 02:25:49,680
be otherwise and the fact that the

4275
02:25:55,910 --> 02:25:51,920
universe is extravagant

4276
02:25:58,150 --> 02:25:55,920
is potentially uh a clue a symbol

4277
02:25:59,670 --> 02:25:58,160
a talisman i'm not saying it's proof of

4278
02:26:00,790 --> 02:25:59,680
course because i don't think there can

4279
02:26:03,270 --> 02:26:00,800
be proof

4280
02:26:05,190 --> 02:26:03,280
but um but i think those are sort of a

4281
02:26:07,190 --> 02:26:05,200
non-materialistic but again it's

4282
02:26:08,950 --> 02:26:07,200
materialistic and a reductionist sense

4283
02:26:11,429 --> 02:26:08,960
because i do believe that you can

4284
02:26:13,510 --> 02:26:11,439
practice it for your own benefit you can

4285
02:26:16,070 --> 02:26:13,520
you can glean wisdom from it you can

4286
02:26:18,230 --> 02:26:16,080
glean experience community charity

4287
02:26:19,429 --> 02:26:18,240
things that improve you stoicism you

4288
02:26:21,110 --> 02:26:19,439
know i'm one of the few people i read

4289
02:26:23,429 --> 02:26:21,120
the christian bible every day in the

4290
02:26:25,590 --> 02:26:23,439
jewish bible every day i read the stoics

4291
02:26:26,950 --> 02:26:25,600
the ancient greeks the romans

4292
02:26:28,790 --> 02:26:26,960
these are things that i think broaden

4293
02:26:30,150 --> 02:26:28,800
your mind whether you believe it has to

4294
02:26:31,910 --> 02:26:30,160
be true or not

4295
02:26:33,510 --> 02:26:31,920
um so i'm more of a pragmatist i would

4296
02:26:35,270 --> 02:26:33,520
say in terms of what consciousness

4297
02:26:36,230 --> 02:26:35,280
things could not be explainable via

4298
02:26:37,270 --> 02:26:36,240
science

4299
02:26:39,110 --> 02:26:37,280
i'm going to ask you one more time

4300
02:26:43,750 --> 02:26:39,120
simply so can you point to something

4301
02:26:47,590 --> 02:26:46,309
lee what would you say i can i i would

4302
02:26:49,110 --> 02:26:47,600
say there's lots of things that exist

4303
02:26:50,469 --> 02:26:49,120
outside consciousness but i think we

4304
02:26:52,389 --> 02:26:50,479
have to do that doing that null

4305
02:26:54,309 --> 02:26:52,399
experiment is hard right

4306
02:26:56,389 --> 02:26:54,319
i think that the causal chain that gave

4307
02:26:58,710 --> 02:26:56,399
gave rise to how chemistry so i'm going

4308
02:27:00,309 --> 02:26:58,720
to give the boring answer but i think

4309
02:27:01,190 --> 02:27:00,319
that um the

4310
02:27:07,190 --> 02:27:01,200
the

4311
02:27:09,510 --> 02:27:07,200
exists outside consciousness because it

4312
02:27:11,590 --> 02:27:09,520
had to invent consciousness i would be

4313
02:27:13,190 --> 02:27:11,600
interested to know if computation is a

4314
02:27:15,270 --> 02:27:13,200
fundamental thing in the universe that

4315
02:27:17,830 --> 02:27:15,280
didn't need to go through consciousness

4316
02:27:19,750 --> 02:27:17,840
um that's an interesting question but my

4317
02:27:21,429 --> 02:27:19,760
my simple answer is i think that a lot

4318
02:27:23,750 --> 02:27:21,439
of you the universe exists outside of

4319
02:27:24,710 --> 02:27:23,760
consciousness but i will never

4320
02:27:26,950 --> 02:27:24,720
really

4321
02:27:28,870 --> 02:27:26,960
convincingly be able to prove it because

4322
02:27:30,950 --> 02:27:28,880
i am a conscious entity

4323
02:27:32,309 --> 02:27:30,960
just to make it clear because i want to

4324
02:27:34,309 --> 02:27:32,319
make sure this person doesn't write in

4325
02:27:35,830 --> 02:27:34,319
the comments say they equivocated what

4326
02:27:38,150 --> 02:27:35,840
is one example of something that is

4327
02:27:40,150 --> 02:27:38,160
outside consciousness

4328
02:27:42,389 --> 02:27:40,160
i think understanding consciousness i

4329
02:27:44,230 --> 02:27:42,399
think the meta problem of

4330
02:27:45,830 --> 02:27:44,240
you know what is it like to be a bad how

4331
02:27:47,510 --> 02:27:45,840
do you how do you separate in the heart

4332
02:27:48,870 --> 02:27:47,520
you know david charles is coming on my

4333
02:27:51,510 --> 02:27:48,880
show in a couple weeks i'll certainly

4334
02:27:53,030 --> 02:27:51,520
ask him this question oh you're saying

4335
02:27:55,110 --> 02:27:53,040
yeah you're saying something beyond

4336
02:27:56,469 --> 02:27:55,120
conscious comprehension intrinsically

4337
02:27:57,830 --> 02:27:56,479
right is that why

4338
02:27:59,830 --> 02:27:57,840
i think here's what the person is

4339
02:28:01,990 --> 02:27:59,840
getting at let's imagine i say x is

4340
02:28:04,150 --> 02:28:02,000
outside consciousness well that x

4341
02:28:05,510 --> 02:28:04,160
appears to you in your own consciousness

4342
02:28:07,110 --> 02:28:05,520
so it's not technically outside

4343
02:28:10,389 --> 02:28:07,120
consciousness now you can think maybe it

4344
02:28:12,309 --> 02:28:10,399
can exist besides me outside of me but

4345
02:28:15,270 --> 02:28:12,319
even that itself is an idea within

4346
02:28:17,190 --> 02:28:15,280
consciousness the easy answer right and

4347
02:28:19,590 --> 02:28:17,200
i think brian well i mean i think brian

4348
02:28:20,790 --> 02:28:19,600
might agree with this is like i'm not i

4349
02:28:22,790 --> 02:28:20,800
i think that

4350
02:28:24,469 --> 02:28:22,800
um the ground truth for quantum

4351
02:28:26,070 --> 02:28:24,479
mechanics appears to be outside of

4352
02:28:28,469 --> 02:28:26,080
consciousness because quantum mechanics

4353
02:28:30,550 --> 02:28:28,479
wasn't constructed of conscious beings

4354
02:28:32,230 --> 02:28:30,560
and then we get all us and it's shown by

4355
02:28:35,270 --> 02:28:32,240
you know there are people who are

4356
02:28:37,590 --> 02:28:35,280
closets many worlds people right

4357
02:28:39,670 --> 02:28:37,600
and they get really stuck another thing

4358
02:28:40,950 --> 02:28:39,680
is that before that

4359
02:28:42,230 --> 02:28:40,960
i can

4360
02:28:44,150 --> 02:28:42,240
imagine

4361
02:28:46,710 --> 02:28:44,160
that there might be something outside of

4362
02:28:49,349 --> 02:28:46,720
the universe that is entirely separate

4363
02:28:51,190 --> 02:28:49,359
to this universe i can imagine it

4364
02:28:52,870 --> 02:28:51,200
but i just but i there is something

4365
02:28:55,670 --> 02:28:52,880
beyond my imagination because clearly

4366
02:28:57,270 --> 02:28:55,680
what can it be right i mean i could say

4367
02:28:59,270 --> 02:28:57,280
this is really like me saying i can

4368
02:29:01,830 --> 02:28:59,280
imagine all the set of prime numbers but

4369
02:29:03,429 --> 02:29:01,840
i can't tell you what the next one is

4370
02:29:05,190 --> 02:29:03,439
and that's really important so i think

4371
02:29:06,950 --> 02:29:05,200
there are things outside of that

4372
02:29:09,910 --> 02:29:06,960
intrinsically outside of consciousness

4373
02:29:11,750 --> 02:29:09,920
and and um and i think that we have to

4374
02:29:14,790 --> 02:29:11,760
be humble because i think even if we

4375
02:29:16,790 --> 02:29:14,800
think we could nail everything

4376
02:29:18,870 --> 02:29:16,800
i mean actually i'm i'm not religious

4377
02:29:22,070 --> 02:29:18,880
right but i have a great deal of respect

4378
02:29:24,790 --> 02:29:22,080
for uh religious people i do not like

4379
02:29:27,030 --> 02:29:24,800
the approach that richard dawkins and

4380
02:29:28,309 --> 02:29:27,040
lawrence krauss take to people who have

4381
02:29:30,469 --> 02:29:28,319
religion and say they're stupid because

4382
02:29:32,790 --> 02:29:30,479
they're not they have belief

4383
02:29:34,630 --> 02:29:32,800
and i have beliefs and my beliefs are

4384
02:29:36,230 --> 02:29:34,640
kind of a bit boring but i do have

4385
02:29:38,469 --> 02:29:36,240
beliefs and one of the reasons why i get

4386
02:29:40,070 --> 02:29:38,479
a buzz out of science is um i'm taking

4387
02:29:41,110 --> 02:29:40,080
something in my belief box and putting

4388
02:29:43,270 --> 02:29:41,120
it into my

4389
02:29:45,429 --> 02:29:43,280
fact box and it's not that i'm trying to

4390
02:29:47,270 --> 02:29:45,439
disprove god but it's like i'm going

4391
02:29:49,030 --> 02:29:47,280
through this process of actually

4392
02:29:50,389 --> 02:29:49,040
understanding more about the universe

4393
02:29:52,790 --> 02:29:50,399
the more in awe of it and the more i

4394
02:29:54,469 --> 02:29:52,800
know there's more belief and so i don't

4395
02:29:56,150 --> 02:29:54,479
think ever again that's the answer so i

4396
02:29:58,790 --> 02:29:56,160
think of course intrinsically there must

4397
02:30:00,150 --> 02:29:58,800
be things i think is this provable i

4398
02:30:01,830 --> 02:30:00,160
think we would need to get a proper

4399
02:30:03,349 --> 02:30:01,840
philosopher who would take us through

4400
02:30:04,710 --> 02:30:03,359
the thought processes and understanding

4401
02:30:06,950 --> 02:30:04,720
how to set up the axioms and the

4402
02:30:08,550 --> 02:30:06,960
argument but i believe my crude answer

4403
02:30:11,429 --> 02:30:08,560
would be probably almost yes there's

4404
02:30:13,349 --> 02:30:11,439
lots outside of our consciousness

4405
02:30:14,790 --> 02:30:13,359
okay this question comes from david and

4406
02:30:16,309 --> 02:30:14,800
it's directed toward you lee but you can

4407
02:30:18,950 --> 02:30:16,319
comment on it as well

4408
02:30:21,830 --> 02:30:18,960
brian in what sense does lee think that

4409
02:30:23,910 --> 02:30:21,840
we need new laws for life like extra

4410
02:30:27,510 --> 02:30:23,920
stuff at the fundamental level or some

4411
02:30:29,590 --> 02:30:27,520
emergent higher level type of stuff

4412
02:30:32,550 --> 02:30:29,600
well um i've already said it i think

4413
02:30:34,870 --> 02:30:32,560
that so not new laws necessarily but i

4414
02:30:36,469 --> 02:30:34,880
think that i well i would say that we we

4415
02:30:39,349 --> 02:30:36,479
can get rid of some laws get rid of the

4416
02:30:40,790 --> 02:30:39,359
second law and account for it correctly

4417
02:30:42,150 --> 02:30:40,800
so i think there's a new law needed

4418
02:30:44,070 --> 02:30:42,160
there so we have to remove the second

4419
02:30:46,150 --> 02:30:44,080
law we have to deal with the fact that

4420
02:30:48,630 --> 02:30:46,160
we require order at the beginning again

4421
02:30:49,990 --> 02:30:48,640
get rid of the second law have time so i

4422
02:30:52,150 --> 02:30:50,000
i don't think there's a the nice thing

4423
02:30:54,309 --> 02:30:52,160
about this is it's provable it's gonna

4424
02:30:56,150 --> 02:30:54,319
be experimentally tractable so i'm not

4425
02:30:58,710 --> 02:30:56,160
saying we need to tear up all the rules

4426
02:30:59,670 --> 02:30:58,720
i'm just saying that newtonian mechanics

4427
02:31:04,070 --> 02:30:59,680
um

4428
02:31:04,950 --> 02:31:04,080
and and i think i would say something

4429
02:31:11,830 --> 02:31:04,960
very

4430
02:31:14,309 --> 02:31:11,840
i think lisa molin has the same idea

4431
02:31:16,790 --> 02:31:14,319
that everything in the universe every

4432
02:31:19,030 --> 02:31:16,800
object and every event is unique because

4433
02:31:20,870 --> 02:31:19,040
it has a unique place in the universe

4434
02:31:22,950 --> 02:31:20,880
as i said to the person we talked about

4435
02:31:24,550 --> 02:31:22,960
earlier when i went to austin i flew to

4436
02:31:26,150 --> 02:31:24,560
austin i've been austin before and i

4437
02:31:27,670 --> 02:31:26,160
flew back to london

4438
02:31:29,429 --> 02:31:27,680
i've been to those places before but

4439
02:31:31,349 --> 02:31:29,439
i've no i've never been there before

4440
02:31:33,110 --> 02:31:31,359
because the planet in a different place

4441
02:31:35,270 --> 02:31:33,120
in our solar system and our solar

4442
02:31:37,670 --> 02:31:35,280
system's a different part in space

4443
02:31:40,870 --> 02:31:37,680
and so i think that we need to

4444
02:31:42,630 --> 02:31:40,880
understand that time is not reversible

4445
02:31:45,590 --> 02:31:42,640
and that physicists should stop be given

4446
02:31:47,190 --> 02:31:45,600
a free get out of jail card allowing

4447
02:31:50,150 --> 02:31:47,200
time travel because i think there's

4448
02:31:51,830 --> 02:31:50,160
cheating causality so i would say ask

4449
02:31:53,590 --> 02:31:51,840
that question is that we need to be

4450
02:31:55,110 --> 02:31:53,600
clear about causation

4451
02:32:01,270 --> 02:31:55,120
from

4452
02:32:03,590 --> 02:32:01,280
rocks to rachmaninoff so i think yes we

4453
02:32:06,790 --> 02:32:03,600
need a new formulation of the laws but

4454
02:32:08,389 --> 02:32:06,800
it's not magic it's just reframing

4455
02:32:11,349 --> 02:32:08,399
brian

4456
02:32:13,429 --> 02:32:11,359
well i'd say they're um it's poetic it's

4457
02:32:15,670 --> 02:32:13,439
their certain romanticism about what

4458
02:32:17,670 --> 02:32:15,680
lee's talking about i think strictly

4459
02:32:19,910 --> 02:32:17,680
speaking you know i don't i always say

4460
02:32:22,550 --> 02:32:19,920
you know cosmology is the one

4461
02:32:24,550 --> 02:32:22,560
specialization of physics that doesn't

4462
02:32:26,630 --> 02:32:24,560
require biology you know it's like

4463
02:32:28,870 --> 02:32:26,640
almost everything else yeah uh to to

4464
02:32:30,950 --> 02:32:28,880
instantiate itself um or perhaps the

4465
02:32:32,070 --> 02:32:30,960
other way around i never make use of

4466
02:32:33,190 --> 02:32:32,080
when i teach my undergraduates say

4467
02:32:35,190 --> 02:32:33,200
you're gonna learn thermodynamics

4468
02:32:36,710 --> 02:32:35,200
electromagnetism nuclear physics

4469
02:32:39,030 --> 02:32:36,720
particle physics but you're not gonna

4470
02:32:40,630 --> 02:32:39,040
learn anything about biophysics or you

4471
02:32:42,150 --> 02:32:40,640
know you'll even learn some chemistry

4472
02:32:44,230 --> 02:32:42,160
right we'll talk a little bit about the

4473
02:32:46,389 --> 02:32:44,240
formation of the chemical elements

4474
02:32:47,990 --> 02:32:46,399
but um that being said i don't think

4475
02:32:51,830 --> 02:32:48,000
that there's anything

4476
02:32:54,950 --> 02:32:51,840
to learn about g minus 2 of the muon or

4477
02:32:57,030 --> 02:32:54,960
of sterile neutrinos or you know from a

4478
02:32:59,190 --> 02:32:57,040
new interpretation that involves life i

4479
02:33:00,790 --> 02:32:59,200
think you know much much like i joke

4480
02:33:03,510 --> 02:33:00,800
about this like string theory is the

4481
02:33:05,429 --> 02:33:03,520
best theory ever made to describe

4482
02:33:07,670 --> 02:33:05,439
problems in string theory in other words

4483
02:33:08,790 --> 02:33:07,680
there will be new technology there'll be

4484
02:33:15,990 --> 02:33:08,800
new

4485
02:33:17,590 --> 02:33:16,000
approach the problem the essence of life

4486
02:33:19,110 --> 02:33:17,600
and don't forget erin schrodinger

4487
02:33:20,469 --> 02:33:19,120
recently canceled by the way did you

4488
02:33:22,150 --> 02:33:20,479
hear about that the schrodinger's been

4489
02:33:24,870 --> 02:33:22,160
canceled um

4490
02:33:27,030 --> 02:33:24,880
finally uh for for some sexual

4491
02:33:27,990 --> 02:33:27,040
improprieties uh that are quite awful if

4492
02:33:29,670 --> 02:33:28,000
true

4493
02:33:31,750 --> 02:33:29,680
uh but the bottom line is no i don't

4494
02:33:34,150 --> 02:33:31,760
think that to understand um that there

4495
02:33:36,230 --> 02:33:34,160
may be additional forces and fields

4496
02:33:37,990 --> 02:33:36,240
gauge bosons and so forth at the in the

4497
02:33:40,870 --> 02:33:38,000
standard model there probably certainly

4498
02:33:42,710 --> 02:33:40,880
are i don't know um and uh but but i

4499
02:33:46,309 --> 02:33:42,720
don't think that those will necessitate

4500
02:33:48,630 --> 02:33:46,319
or require uh the conceptions of life to

4501
02:33:50,309 --> 02:33:48,640
be uh emergent and within them

4502
02:33:52,389 --> 02:33:50,319
so i've pushed back to brian slightly i

4503
02:33:54,389 --> 02:33:52,399
want to push for i agree with what brian

4504
02:33:57,510 --> 02:33:54,399
said but i think he's kind of

4505
02:33:59,750 --> 02:33:57,520
causation physics doesn't have causation

4506
02:34:02,230 --> 02:33:59,760
at this in in the standard model in the

4507
02:34:04,550 --> 02:34:02,240
core models we call it and that is a big

4508
02:34:06,469 --> 02:34:04,560
error and i am really certain very

4509
02:34:08,950 --> 02:34:06,479
strongly with some courage and humility

4510
02:34:10,870 --> 02:34:08,960
that i think that we need to add that in

4511
02:34:12,389 --> 02:34:10,880
and i think brian correct me if i'm

4512
02:34:14,389 --> 02:34:12,399
wrong because we were kind of left the

4513
02:34:15,910 --> 02:34:14,399
ring now we're kind of like we've we've

4514
02:34:18,630 --> 02:34:15,920
i don't know if it's a draw or there was

4515
02:34:19,670 --> 02:34:18,640
a who went on point but i would say that

4516
02:34:23,190 --> 02:34:19,680
really

4517
02:34:24,070 --> 02:34:23,200
um we do need causation at the beginning

4518
02:34:25,990 --> 02:34:24,080
um

4519
02:34:27,830 --> 02:34:26,000
then that is that that shouldn't be that

4520
02:34:30,870 --> 02:34:27,840
shouldn't be because when i speak to

4521
02:34:32,469 --> 02:34:30,880
frank we'll check about it he just

4522
02:34:34,070 --> 02:34:32,479
he just i mean i have speaking to him

4523
02:34:35,750 --> 02:34:34,080
about it and he was very

4524
02:34:37,190 --> 02:34:35,760
very good he's very smart he's a bit

4525
02:34:38,550 --> 02:34:37,200
cheeky you know he should do this and

4526
02:34:40,309 --> 02:34:38,560
some people get prizes for that and i

4527
02:34:41,190 --> 02:34:40,319
was like it's just a prize dude who

4528
02:34:43,750 --> 02:34:41,200
cares

4529
02:34:45,590 --> 02:34:43,760
tell me if causation is at the beginning

4530
02:34:46,790 --> 02:34:45,600
and i couldn't work on it you know i

4531
02:34:49,110 --> 02:34:46,800
mean there are people that talk about

4532
02:34:51,830 --> 02:34:49,120
the causal you know the structure joe

4533
02:34:53,830 --> 02:34:51,840
amagio lee smolin stephan alexander's

4534
02:34:56,790 --> 02:34:53,840
the going to be on soon on on this very

4535
02:34:58,950 --> 02:34:56,800
podcast so yeah no i i agree um i would

4536
02:35:01,270 --> 02:34:58,960
i would you know maybe maybe just just

4537
02:35:03,910 --> 02:35:01,280
kind of rectify my comment by saying i

4538
02:35:05,830 --> 02:35:03,920
don't personally have much you know

4539
02:35:07,590 --> 02:35:05,840
faith in say the wolf rami and which is

4540
02:35:09,510 --> 02:35:07,600
the most kind of like life like you know

4541
02:35:11,590 --> 02:35:09,520
at least in terms of complexity

4542
02:35:14,230 --> 02:35:11,600
and rules and algorithmically uh

4543
02:35:16,309 --> 02:35:14,240
computable um assets that that will you

4544
02:35:18,389 --> 02:35:16,319
know make concrete astrophysical

4545
02:35:21,750 --> 02:35:18,399
predictions that laws will emerge from

4546
02:35:22,950 --> 02:35:21,760
it um and maybe it may be that you know

4547
02:35:24,790 --> 02:35:22,960
understanding life allows us to

4548
02:35:27,349 --> 02:35:24,800
understand artificial intelligence which

4549
02:35:29,590 --> 02:35:27,359
then allows us to make up new laws i'm

4550
02:35:31,429 --> 02:35:29,600
also kind of a ai minimalist but but

4551
02:35:32,790 --> 02:35:31,439
that's really a podcast for another time

4552
02:35:34,389 --> 02:35:32,800
because i i would just think that the

4553
02:35:36,070 --> 02:35:34,399
wife and kids will come and get me soon

4554
02:35:37,349 --> 02:35:36,080
curt okay so then this is the last one

4555
02:35:39,349 --> 02:35:37,359
and it relates to what you said about

4556
02:35:41,510 --> 02:35:39,359
causation okay why is this this is from

4557
02:35:43,270 --> 02:35:41,520
kamar 910 why is there something rather

4558
02:35:45,349 --> 02:35:43,280
than nothing and lee when you say

4559
02:35:47,510 --> 02:35:45,359
causation so physicists obviously study

4560
02:35:48,870 --> 02:35:47,520
causal structures like brian mentioned

4561
02:35:50,150 --> 02:35:48,880
but those usually mean you're within the

4562
02:35:52,630 --> 02:35:50,160
light cone and it's as simple as that

4563
02:35:54,309 --> 02:35:52,640
not this caused this so when you have a

4564
02:35:55,830 --> 02:35:54,319
model of causation which i'm unsure how

4565
02:35:57,670 --> 02:35:55,840
one could formulate that how does that

4566
02:35:59,750 --> 02:35:57,680
not lead to an infinite regress or

4567
02:36:01,510 --> 02:35:59,760
either an uncaused cause that at some

4568
02:36:02,870 --> 02:36:01,520
point especially if you consider time to

4569
02:36:04,469 --> 02:36:02,880
be fundamental

4570
02:36:05,910 --> 02:36:04,479
which ties into why is there something

4571
02:36:07,110 --> 02:36:05,920
rather than nothing which is kamar's

4572
02:36:08,950 --> 02:36:07,120
question

4573
02:36:10,630 --> 02:36:08,960
yeah let me give you two cent summary so

4574
02:36:12,550 --> 02:36:10,640
the theory paper i'm just finishing with

4575
02:36:13,830 --> 02:36:12,560
sarah right now actually tackles that

4576
02:36:15,670 --> 02:36:13,840
very question

4577
02:36:17,510 --> 02:36:15,680
and and it's to accept that there are

4578
02:36:20,150 --> 02:36:17,520
there at the beginning there is no

4579
02:36:21,429 --> 02:36:20,160
causation and but that causation gets

4580
02:36:23,670 --> 02:36:21,439
baked in

4581
02:36:25,670 --> 02:36:23,680
when when information can be stored

4582
02:36:27,349 --> 02:36:25,680
about the past that can affect something

4583
02:36:29,590 --> 02:36:27,359
differently in the future and it's

4584
02:36:31,110 --> 02:36:29,600
really as simple as that and the only

4585
02:36:33,110 --> 02:36:31,120
reason physicists have missed it is

4586
02:36:35,190 --> 02:36:33,120
because they call screen it out

4587
02:36:37,030 --> 02:36:35,200
so all i'm asked all i'm slightly asking

4588
02:36:39,110 --> 02:36:37,040
for is to remove entropy

4589
02:36:41,510 --> 02:36:39,120
change it to assembly have time going

4590
02:36:43,670 --> 02:36:41,520
forward and suddenly you do have causal

4591
02:36:45,830 --> 02:36:43,680
cones and those causal cones actually

4592
02:36:47,510 --> 02:36:45,840
are limited by the light cone and i

4593
02:36:49,750 --> 02:36:47,520
think that brian and i one day will be

4594
02:36:51,590 --> 02:36:49,760
talking about assembly cosmology and

4595
02:36:53,190 --> 02:36:51,600
we'll be looking for those artifacts out

4596
02:36:54,790 --> 02:36:53,200
there but i think we'll we're a little

4597
02:36:57,110 --> 02:36:54,800
bit far away from that i need to prove

4598
02:37:00,150 --> 02:36:57,120
the theory do the experiments get the

4599
02:37:01,830 --> 02:37:00,160
data show the error convince peers

4600
02:37:03,990 --> 02:37:01,840
because right now it's just a kind of

4601
02:37:05,349 --> 02:37:04,000
cool idea a bit like lots of things in

4602
02:37:07,429 --> 02:37:05,359
string theory and you get that

4603
02:37:09,190 --> 02:37:07,439
mathematical structure in reality

4604
02:37:10,389 --> 02:37:09,200
and i think we'll be able to but we'll

4605
02:37:13,349 --> 02:37:10,399
have to be held account on that so it's

4606
02:37:15,349 --> 02:37:13,359
a really good question um but i'm pretty

4607
02:37:17,110 --> 02:37:15,359
sure i know where it is

4608
02:37:18,710 --> 02:37:17,120
what we're doing right i'm also going to

4609
02:37:20,230 --> 02:37:18,720
re-ask you to leave so you can expound

4610
02:37:21,590 --> 02:37:20,240
some more but brian has to go so brian

4611
02:37:23,670 --> 02:37:21,600
please

4612
02:37:25,270 --> 02:37:23,680
uh so again the question from kumar

4613
02:37:27,750 --> 02:37:25,280
again is why is there something rather

4614
02:37:29,510 --> 02:37:27,760
than nothing okay so what i thought lee

4615
02:37:31,110 --> 02:37:29,520
might say is the why questions are kind

4616
02:37:32,469 --> 02:37:31,120
of anathema even though they're the most

4617
02:37:34,870 --> 02:37:32,479
interesting questions and the most

4618
02:37:36,950 --> 02:37:34,880
natural questions my my toddler will ask

4619
02:37:38,070 --> 02:37:36,960
me why why why and of course lee as a

4620
02:37:39,590 --> 02:37:38,080
parent kurt doesn't know this yet

4621
02:37:42,070 --> 02:37:39,600
because he's not a dad yet but please

4622
02:37:43,910 --> 02:37:42,080
god you'll be a father soon uh kurt you

4623
02:37:46,469 --> 02:37:43,920
and your lovely wife but lee knows the

4624
02:37:48,309 --> 02:37:46,479
ultimate causal chain with an infinite

4625
02:37:51,910 --> 02:37:48,319
series of why questions lee how do we

4626
02:37:56,309 --> 02:37:54,469
i guess so i mean i just say just tell

4627
02:37:57,990 --> 02:37:56,319
them to look for themselves or to shut

4628
02:38:00,389 --> 02:37:58,000
up asking the question right the answer

4629
02:38:02,710 --> 02:38:00,399
is why why why why why why why because i

4630
02:38:03,750 --> 02:38:02,720
said so okay there is a way we use

4631
02:38:04,790 --> 02:38:03,760
regression

4632
02:38:06,469 --> 02:38:04,800
right

4633
02:38:08,150 --> 02:38:06,479
because i said so but look you have a

4634
02:38:10,389 --> 02:38:08,160
point you have an origin

4635
02:38:11,910 --> 02:38:10,399
and you have a cause and effect now the

4636
02:38:13,429 --> 02:38:11,920
infinite regress isn't infinite what

4637
02:38:15,270 --> 02:38:13,439
happens is this is i just don't want to

4638
02:38:17,670 --> 02:38:15,280
this is the mechanism selection so what

4639
02:38:19,190 --> 02:38:17,680
this person i'm sorry you have to get

4640
02:38:20,550 --> 02:38:19,200
you have to brian has to go and i'm

4641
02:38:21,910 --> 02:38:20,560
going to talk to you about so you can

4642
02:38:23,429 --> 02:38:21,920
keep talking about that but after brian

4643
02:38:25,429 --> 02:38:23,439
goes i know what it's like to have a

4644
02:38:28,710 --> 02:38:25,439
wife that wants you to come immediately

4645
02:38:30,710 --> 02:38:28,720
no no i mean mine too i think lee is is

4646
02:38:32,630 --> 02:38:30,720
is uh is correct and i and i do want to

4647
02:38:34,469 --> 02:38:32,640
see this and maybe i'll talk with sarah

4648
02:38:37,349 --> 02:38:34,479
about that when she comes on my show

4649
02:38:39,670 --> 02:38:37,359
but um but ultimately why questions are

4650
02:38:42,070 --> 02:38:39,680
not necessarily part of what scientists

4651
02:38:44,230 --> 02:38:42,080
should do why implies a meaning and i

4652
02:38:46,389 --> 02:38:44,240
think meaning you know it will bring up

4653
02:38:48,550 --> 02:38:46,399
questions of you know teleological

4654
02:38:50,469 --> 02:38:48,560
implications uh and i i don't mean that

4655
02:38:52,230 --> 02:38:50,479
they're necessarily anathema but usually

4656
02:38:54,309 --> 02:38:52,240
when people ask why they mean how or

4657
02:38:56,389 --> 02:38:54,319
what um you know how did how did the

4658
02:38:58,309 --> 02:38:56,399
causal chain get established

4659
02:39:00,550 --> 02:38:58,319
those have great answers in in in

4660
02:39:02,309 --> 02:39:00,560
cosmology as well except they have great

4661
02:39:04,389 --> 02:39:02,319
problems too and great mysteries and lee

4662
02:39:06,309 --> 02:39:04,399
alluded to three hours ago now almost

4663
02:39:08,309 --> 02:39:06,319
which was you know how did the whole

4664
02:39:10,710 --> 02:39:08,319
thing get kicked off and and what was

4665
02:39:12,630 --> 02:39:10,720
the initial generation of you know a a

4666
02:39:15,030 --> 02:39:12,640
universe and and so forth you could ask

4667
02:39:17,670 --> 02:39:15,040
why is there a universe but i think that

4668
02:39:19,429 --> 02:39:17,680
the question of of of why first of all

4669
02:39:20,790 --> 02:39:19,439
could be trivial if it didn't exist we

4670
02:39:22,790 --> 02:39:20,800
wouldn't be here asking why it doesn't

4671
02:39:25,190 --> 02:39:22,800
exist um

4672
02:39:26,389 --> 02:39:25,200
and uh and and there's your whiskey

4673
02:39:28,309 --> 02:39:26,399
that's wonderful i wish i could have

4674
02:39:30,469 --> 02:39:28,319
some scottish some scottish coffee at

4675
02:39:31,910 --> 02:39:30,479
this time of the day um but uh but in

4676
02:39:34,070 --> 02:39:31,920
reality

4677
02:39:35,830 --> 02:39:34,080
in cosmology as as kurt now you and i

4678
02:39:37,190 --> 02:39:35,840
talked you know i only i only have one

4679
02:39:38,550 --> 02:39:37,200
regret when it comes to kurds that i was

4680
02:39:40,550 --> 02:39:38,560
on his channel when it had the square

4681
02:39:42,309 --> 02:39:40,560
root of the number of viewers that it

4682
02:39:44,630 --> 02:39:42,319
does now and it deserves the square of

4683
02:39:46,710 --> 02:39:44,640
the number or if not more uh but but we

4684
02:39:48,309 --> 02:39:46,720
talked about briefly you know what are

4685
02:39:50,950 --> 02:39:48,319
the laws of physics are they so-called

4686
02:39:52,710 --> 02:39:50,960
geodesically complete can we extrapolate

4687
02:39:54,150 --> 02:39:52,720
the laws and chain of causality within

4688
02:39:55,750 --> 02:39:54,160
the light code when you have a

4689
02:39:57,590 --> 02:39:55,760
singularity and lee mentioned

4690
02:39:59,830 --> 02:39:57,600
singularity a few times i happen to not

4691
02:40:01,270 --> 02:39:59,840
to believe that there is a quantum

4692
02:40:02,630 --> 02:40:01,280
theory of gravity at least i don't

4693
02:40:04,550 --> 02:40:02,640
believe is as well motivated i think

4694
02:40:05,910 --> 02:40:04,560
physicists get distracted by it i think

4695
02:40:07,750 --> 02:40:05,920
that they're pursuing the theory of

4696
02:40:09,510 --> 02:40:07,760
everything for the grandeur the glory

4697
02:40:11,270 --> 02:40:09,520
the the accolades that einstein never

4698
02:40:13,750 --> 02:40:11,280
lived up to that's the very first

4699
02:40:15,030 --> 02:40:13,760
paragraph of michio kako's new book uh

4700
02:40:16,309 --> 02:40:15,040
you know einstein died with his

4701
02:40:18,070 --> 02:40:16,319
unfinished symphony that he couldn't

4702
02:40:19,429 --> 02:40:18,080
come up with a theory of everything no

4703
02:40:22,150 --> 02:40:19,439
despite that being the name of this

4704
02:40:23,750 --> 02:40:22,160
channel i think the gut is almost you

4705
02:40:25,510 --> 02:40:23,760
know being overlooked the grand unified

4706
02:40:27,270 --> 02:40:25,520
theory we don't understand how the lower

4707
02:40:29,349 --> 02:40:27,280
energy forces or the higher energy force

4708
02:40:31,030 --> 02:40:29,359
are unified let alone how all four are

4709
02:40:33,510 --> 02:40:31,040
unified and who

4710
02:40:36,150 --> 02:40:33,520
if not you know uh one of us has the

4711
02:40:37,830 --> 02:40:36,160
temerity to say that there has to be a

4712
02:40:40,070 --> 02:40:37,840
law of quantum gravity what if there's

4713
02:40:42,630 --> 02:40:40,080
not so i'll channel my inner uh you know

4714
02:40:44,389 --> 02:40:42,640
lee and and say you know i don't believe

4715
02:40:46,150 --> 02:40:44,399
that there is quantum gravity because i

4716
02:40:47,670 --> 02:40:46,160
want to inspire my colleagues to think

4717
02:40:49,910 --> 02:40:47,680
harder about it and we've been going

4718
02:40:52,550 --> 02:40:49,920
about this for decades now with little

4719
02:40:53,750 --> 02:40:52,560
signs of progress um not to say to stop

4720
02:40:56,469 --> 02:40:53,760
even string theory which i have my

4721
02:40:58,630 --> 02:40:56,479
problems with um uh but the alternative

4722
02:40:59,990 --> 02:40:58,640
as they say you know uh the the string

4723
02:41:01,670 --> 02:41:00,000
theory is the worst theory except for

4724
02:41:03,270 --> 02:41:01,680
all the others uh that could be true

4725
02:41:04,870 --> 02:41:03,280
according to whitten

4726
02:41:06,710 --> 02:41:04,880
but but i think ultimately the why

4727
02:41:09,349 --> 02:41:06,720
questions are the most interesting but

4728
02:41:11,990 --> 02:41:09,359
we should be careful not to ask for

4729
02:41:14,230 --> 02:41:12,000
motivation i think that evokes teleology

4730
02:41:15,750 --> 02:41:14,240
but but also we should be very precise

4731
02:41:17,270 --> 02:41:15,760
we should answer all the how questions

4732
02:41:19,030 --> 02:41:17,280
as galileo said

4733
02:41:21,510 --> 02:41:19,040
measure what is measurable and make

4734
02:41:23,349 --> 02:41:21,520
measurable what is not yet so

4735
02:41:24,469 --> 02:41:23,359
and as experimentalists lee and i try to

4736
02:41:26,230 --> 02:41:24,479
do that

4737
02:41:27,670 --> 02:41:26,240
yeah that's a great way to end it put it

4738
02:41:29,590 --> 02:41:27,680
i agree

4739
02:41:31,190 --> 02:41:29,600
thank you so much to the both of you i

4740
02:41:32,790 --> 02:41:31,200
appreciate it and the audience does as

4741
02:41:34,389 --> 02:41:32,800
well

4742
02:41:35,990 --> 02:41:34,399
my pleasure thank you kurt and thank you

4743
02:41:37,590 --> 02:41:36,000
lee i can't wait to be uh together with

4744
02:41:39,429 --> 02:41:37,600
both of you guys at some point in the

4745
02:41:41,750 --> 02:41:39,439
near future light cone

4746
02:41:42,790 --> 02:41:41,760
and all the links yeah and all of the

4747
02:41:45,429 --> 02:41:42,800
links to

4748
02:41:47,110 --> 02:41:45,439
lee cronin's and brian keating's work

4749
02:41:48,790 --> 02:41:47,120
are in the description

4750
02:41:51,270 --> 02:41:48,800
thank you

4751
02:41:52,630 --> 02:41:51,280
okay thanks guys good job okay so lee i

4752
02:41:54,469 --> 02:41:52,640
know i was cutting you off but i know

4753
02:41:56,630 --> 02:41:54,479
brian has to go did you want to expand

4754
02:41:58,309 --> 02:41:56,640
on what you were saying before

4755
02:42:00,070 --> 02:41:58,319
yeah just very quickly so this whole

4756
02:42:01,670 --> 02:42:00,080
idea for infinite regress doesn't have

4757
02:42:03,429 --> 02:42:01,680
to happen if you haven't if you have an

4758
02:42:05,750 --> 02:42:03,439
origin and you have some events to

4759
02:42:07,750 --> 02:42:05,760
happen like the the events are random

4760
02:42:08,950 --> 02:42:07,760
but as soon as they start to

4761
02:42:10,870 --> 02:42:08,960
um

4762
02:42:12,710 --> 02:42:10,880
although they're random as they go on in

4763
02:42:14,469 --> 02:42:12,720
time they become contingent

4764
02:42:16,070 --> 02:42:14,479
because what happens in the future has

4765
02:42:17,349 --> 02:42:16,080
some relationship to that in the past

4766
02:42:18,710 --> 02:42:17,359
and as long as you don't call screen it

4767
02:42:21,510 --> 02:42:18,720
out now

4768
02:42:23,270 --> 02:42:21,520
when you start to then create an object

4769
02:42:24,230 --> 02:42:23,280
that can then that object can then

4770
02:42:26,389 --> 02:42:24,240
actually

4771
02:42:28,150 --> 02:42:26,399
interact on the infinite regress don't

4772
02:42:30,230 --> 02:42:28,160
go back in the loop but not back to the

4773
02:42:32,389 --> 02:42:30,240
beginning and give

4774
02:42:34,070 --> 02:42:32,399
some knowledge from the future if you

4775
02:42:36,389 --> 02:42:34,080
like to the past

4776
02:42:38,469 --> 02:42:36,399
um then that infinite regress is not an

4777
02:42:39,990 --> 02:42:38,479
infinite regress it's just selection so

4778
02:42:41,670 --> 02:42:40,000
what that means is you have a series of

4779
02:42:43,349 --> 02:42:41,680
processes where you make an object so

4780
02:42:44,870 --> 02:42:43,359
let's just say you've got some

4781
02:42:46,469 --> 02:42:44,880
um some

4782
02:42:47,910 --> 02:42:46,479
uh chemistry occurring you've got let's

4783
02:42:49,030 --> 02:42:47,920
say you have two different streams of

4784
02:42:50,790 --> 02:42:49,040
chemistry

4785
02:42:52,150 --> 02:42:50,800
and they're random right but then in

4786
02:42:53,990 --> 02:42:52,160
each stream so you've got stream a

4787
02:42:55,349 --> 02:42:54,000
random stream b random and they're

4788
02:42:57,910 --> 02:42:55,359
becoming less random there's some

4789
02:43:00,070 --> 02:42:57,920
structure and then stream a

4790
02:43:02,550 --> 02:43:00,080
is able to interact with stream b

4791
02:43:04,389 --> 02:43:02,560
and to change the reaction

4792
02:43:06,469 --> 02:43:04,399
um so it can act back on itself with

4793
02:43:09,030 --> 02:43:06,479
more efficiency so that's something that

4794
02:43:11,110 --> 02:43:09,040
b can act back on itself yeah and then

4795
02:43:12,550 --> 02:43:11,120
you basically then then you get all

4796
02:43:14,710 --> 02:43:12,560
sorts of crazy things going because then

4797
02:43:16,790 --> 02:43:14,720
a and b become intertwined and mutually

4798
02:43:19,270 --> 02:43:16,800
dependent and then that goes up and then

4799
02:43:21,270 --> 02:43:19,280
this process of selection

4800
02:43:24,710 --> 02:43:21,280
starts to transition and i think that's

4801
02:43:26,630 --> 02:43:24,720
the secret but i haven't got there yet

4802
02:43:28,309 --> 02:43:26,640
we have seen evidence of this in the

4803
02:43:30,790 --> 02:43:28,319
laboratory

4804
02:43:33,190 --> 02:43:30,800
and i think this is the answer to the

4805
02:43:35,590 --> 02:43:33,200
origin of life but we need to literally

4806
02:43:37,190 --> 02:43:35,600
run the experiment put a heavy emphasis

4807
02:43:39,670 --> 02:43:37,200
on selection and i'm wondering does

4808
02:43:42,309 --> 02:43:39,680
section selection in your model of life

4809
02:43:43,910 --> 02:43:42,319
come prior to reproducing and variations

4810
02:43:46,389 --> 02:43:43,920
sounds like variation was there though

4811
02:43:47,910 --> 02:43:46,399
in the b a and the b yes so variation

4812
02:43:49,670 --> 02:43:47,920
was first that produced selection which

4813
02:43:52,309 --> 02:43:49,680
then produced actually

4814
02:43:54,550 --> 02:43:52,319
yeah when you have heterogeneity

4815
02:43:57,910 --> 02:43:54,560
and then you can get selection

4816
02:43:58,870 --> 02:43:57,920
uh and um this kind of variation and and

4817
02:44:01,030 --> 02:43:58,880
things

4818
02:44:03,429 --> 02:44:01,040
interacting and evolution can actually

4819
02:44:05,349 --> 02:44:03,439
still occur on very long time scales and

4820
02:44:07,429 --> 02:44:05,359
these in these on these on these

4821
02:44:09,429 --> 02:44:07,439
infinite timelines if you like and what

4822
02:44:12,870 --> 02:44:09,439
happens is that biology weaponizes

4823
02:44:15,510 --> 02:44:12,880
evolution through through autonomous um

4824
02:44:17,750 --> 02:44:15,520
reproduction because it like grabs all

4825
02:44:19,269 --> 02:44:17,760
those causal chains and can combine them

4826
02:44:21,910 --> 02:44:19,279
together in one object and the way it

4827
02:44:24,309 --> 02:44:21,920
weaponizes is it basically

4828
02:44:26,230 --> 02:44:24,319
replicates the genome stores information

4829
02:44:28,070 --> 02:44:26,240
very efficiently from the environment

4830
02:44:30,550 --> 02:44:28,080
and then adapts and it can

4831
02:44:33,190 --> 02:44:30,560
basically produce lots of attempts

4832
02:44:35,830 --> 02:44:33,200
at copying itself with slightly

4833
02:44:38,230 --> 02:44:35,840
different causal structures and so why i

4834
02:44:40,070 --> 02:44:38,240
see biology is biology is like a

4835
02:44:42,469 --> 02:44:40,080
it creates evolution which is an

4836
02:44:44,950 --> 02:44:42,479
amplifier for selection

4837
02:44:46,870 --> 02:44:44,960
and all the universe is trying to do is

4838
02:44:48,950 --> 02:44:46,880
become fitter

4839
02:44:50,230 --> 02:44:48,960
i see i i'm having a difficult time

4840
02:44:51,670 --> 02:44:50,240
understanding it and i think it's

4841
02:44:53,750 --> 02:44:51,680
because i don't know what definition of

4842
02:44:55,190 --> 02:44:53,760
cause you're using to say that there was

4843
02:44:56,790 --> 02:44:55,200
a first cause that came from something

4844
02:44:58,389 --> 02:44:56,800
that was uncaused so i think that's

4845
02:45:00,230 --> 02:44:58,399
where my what i'm just saying you've

4846
02:45:02,150 --> 02:45:00,240
just got basically let's think about

4847
02:45:04,710 --> 02:45:02,160
symmetry breaking so you've got a highly

4848
02:45:05,910 --> 02:45:04,720
symmetrical system and then uh things

4849
02:45:08,309 --> 02:45:05,920
interact

4850
02:45:10,150 --> 02:45:08,319
and time because the thing is this is

4851
02:45:12,070 --> 02:45:10,160
where physicists get really stuck in

4852
02:45:13,510 --> 02:45:12,080
that if you've got a time symmetric

4853
02:45:15,190 --> 02:45:13,520
system where does the symmetry breaking

4854
02:45:18,150 --> 02:45:15,200
come from you have to add something in

4855
02:45:21,590 --> 02:45:20,030
some heterogeneity in

4856
02:45:24,309 --> 02:45:21,600
homogeneity

4857
02:45:25,750 --> 02:45:24,319
if you have time you break that symmetry

4858
02:45:27,269 --> 02:45:25,760
necessarily

4859
02:45:29,349 --> 02:45:27,279
so there's something really interesting

4860
02:45:30,790 --> 02:45:29,359
that we don't understand about time but

4861
02:45:33,429 --> 02:45:30,800
um but that's probably for another

4862
02:45:35,030 --> 02:45:33,439
podcast sure man

4863
02:45:36,469 --> 02:45:35,040
and the door's open if you ever want to

4864
02:45:38,070 --> 02:45:36,479
come back on and talk about that yeah

4865
02:45:40,150 --> 02:45:38,080
absolutely yeah yeah it was really

4866
02:45:42,630 --> 02:45:40,160
really we you were very patient with us

4867
02:45:44,630 --> 02:45:42,640
so it's good because i think brian brian

4868
02:45:45,910 --> 02:45:44,640
is a really great debater and it's good

4869
02:45:48,550 --> 02:45:45,920
you know i've got a lot of respect for

4870
02:45:50,309 --> 02:45:48,560
him and what he's doing and he's really

4871
02:45:51,750 --> 02:45:50,319
he's his mission is very good the way

4872
02:45:53,750 --> 02:45:51,760
he's being precise i'm learning a lot

4873
02:45:55,510 --> 02:45:53,760
from him so it was a pleasure honor

4874
02:45:57,510 --> 02:45:55,520
indeed to kind of be with both of you

4875
02:45:59,750 --> 02:45:57,520
guys and talking yeah so the honors

4876
02:46:01,269 --> 02:45:59,760
online man thank you so much

4877
02:46:02,710 --> 02:46:01,279
all right you have a nice day see you

4878
02:46:04,550 --> 02:46:02,720
take care man and any notes that you

4879
02:46:06,630 --> 02:46:04,560
have for me just email me and we can

4880
02:46:07,830 --> 02:46:06,640
absolutely we'll communicate there i'll

4881
02:46:09,190 --> 02:46:07,840
stay and talk to the audience for a

4882
02:46:11,349 --> 02:46:09,200
little bit sorry

4883
02:46:13,110 --> 02:46:11,359
impressed by the questions that also uh

4884
02:46:15,269 --> 02:46:13,120
that you really hadn't looked up the

4885
02:46:17,910 --> 02:46:15,279
assembly theory so i'll ask you about it

4886
02:46:20,870 --> 02:46:17,920
sometimes it's really good all right man

4887
02:46:22,389 --> 02:46:20,880
take care bye bye

4888
02:46:23,830 --> 02:46:22,399
theory of everyone with tyler goldstein

4889
02:46:25,510 --> 02:46:23,840
asks why does he think quantum mechanics

4890
02:46:26,870 --> 02:46:25,520
is outside of consciousness that was my

4891
02:46:28,389 --> 02:46:26,880
question as well

4892
02:46:29,830 --> 02:46:28,399
because you have to presume something

4893
02:46:31,190 --> 02:46:29,840
exists outside of consciousness in order

4894
02:46:32,870 --> 02:46:31,200
to prove that something exists outside

4895
02:46:35,110 --> 02:46:32,880
of it

4896
02:46:36,309 --> 02:46:35,120
thank you travis thank you

4897
02:46:38,550 --> 02:46:36,319
lj

4898
02:46:40,790 --> 02:46:38,560
thank you project malice thank you

4899
02:46:42,469 --> 02:46:40,800
sendip thank you corey

4900
02:46:44,870 --> 02:46:42,479
thank you phillip

4901
02:46:46,550 --> 02:46:44,880
thank you zen jari

4902
02:46:48,070 --> 02:46:46,560
one more time there's a podcast coming

4903
02:46:50,389 --> 02:46:48,080
out in about two

4904
02:46:52,550 --> 02:46:50,399
hours or so with stefan alexander that's

4905
02:46:54,150 --> 02:46:52,560
actually a fantastic podcast i was

4906
02:46:57,910 --> 02:46:54,160
holding off on publishing that for a

4907
02:47:01,429 --> 02:46:59,670
i think i thought it was incomplete and

4908
02:47:02,790 --> 02:47:01,439
i wanted to speak to with stefan some

4909
02:47:06,150 --> 02:47:02,800
more

4910
02:47:09,030 --> 02:47:06,160
and make it

4911
02:47:11,110 --> 02:47:09,040
into a fuller package however as i was

4912
02:47:13,030 --> 02:47:11,120
editing it today it seems like wow it's

4913
02:47:14,950 --> 02:47:13,040
a wonderful podcast so i expect it to do

4914
02:47:19,190 --> 02:47:14,960
well and it's a different podcast it's

4915
02:47:23,269 --> 02:47:21,030
generally when i talk to the physicists

4916
02:47:25,030 --> 02:47:23,279
it gets far more technical than

4917
02:47:27,030 --> 02:47:25,040
virtually any of the other podcasts and

4918
02:47:28,870 --> 02:47:27,040
there's a reason for that i think that's

4919
02:47:30,790 --> 02:47:28,880
i think there is a lacking

4920
02:47:32,070 --> 02:47:30,800
of that type of content someone wants to

4921
02:47:33,269 --> 02:47:32,080
know humphrey wants to know what was it

4922
02:47:35,190 --> 02:47:33,279
like spending four hours with chris

4923
02:47:38,630 --> 02:47:35,200
langan it was actually longer the

4924
02:47:44,710 --> 02:47:42,710
hey i like chris chris is a is chris is

4925
02:47:47,429 --> 02:47:44,720
he's obstreperous

4926
02:47:49,349 --> 02:47:47,439
seemingly but he's a teddy bear

4927
02:47:51,510 --> 02:47:49,359
at least to me

4928
02:47:52,950 --> 02:47:51,520
so i like chris i can understand why

4929
02:47:54,790 --> 02:47:52,960
people

4930
02:47:57,429 --> 02:47:54,800
consider him to be abrasive but that's

4931
02:47:59,670 --> 02:47:57,439
no but even if he is that's no

4932
02:48:01,030 --> 02:47:59,680
well many of the most intelligent people

4933
02:48:03,349 --> 02:48:01,040
can be

4934
02:48:04,309 --> 02:48:03,359
and it's that's an ad hominem if one

4935
02:48:06,870 --> 02:48:04,319
wants to

4936
02:48:08,630 --> 02:48:06,880
discount his ideas based on that okay

4937
02:48:10,309 --> 02:48:08,640
well

4938
02:48:13,190 --> 02:48:10,319
take care everyone thank you so much for

4939
02:48:16,870 --> 02:48:15,110
the podcast is now finished if you'd

4940
02:48:19,990 --> 02:48:16,880
like to support conversations like this

4941
02:48:24,150 --> 02:48:20,000
then do consider going to patreon.com

4942
02:48:26,790 --> 02:48:24,160
c-u-r-t j-a-i-m-u-n-g-a-l

4943
02:48:28,550 --> 02:48:26,800
that is kurt jaimungle it's support from

4944
02:48:30,389 --> 02:48:28,560
the patrons and from the sponsors that